Useless Aviation Degrees
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Raingauge, ang737 and TL
The point is simply this, degree or apprenticeship it shows a level of dedication to something which an employer is looking for.
It is much easier to find a job outside of aviation if you have a trade, yes you can also get one with the wright degree but I doubt that will happen with an aviation degree as quick as you would like.
I'm not knocking degrees in general only people who think that because they have a degree are in some way better than those who don't.
ANG737, '' those who don't have a degree will tend to run down their more EDUCATED counterparts to make themselves feel better.
I applogise if I read that line incorrectly but it sounded to me like you are running down your counterparts without degrees. Just because you have a degree it dosen't make you more educated, there are many other ways to educate yourself. ie trades and courses ect.
Raingauge, sorry bad piece of writing I was suggesting that a background education away from aviation will be the requirement in the future.
see pms
splat
The point is simply this, degree or apprenticeship it shows a level of dedication to something which an employer is looking for.
It is much easier to find a job outside of aviation if you have a trade, yes you can also get one with the wright degree but I doubt that will happen with an aviation degree as quick as you would like.
I'm not knocking degrees in general only people who think that because they have a degree are in some way better than those who don't.
ANG737, '' those who don't have a degree will tend to run down their more EDUCATED counterparts to make themselves feel better.
I applogise if I read that line incorrectly but it sounded to me like you are running down your counterparts without degrees. Just because you have a degree it dosen't make you more educated, there are many other ways to educate yourself. ie trades and courses ect.
Raingauge, sorry bad piece of writing I was suggesting that a background education away from aviation will be the requirement in the future.
see pms
splat
G'Day Keg!
I agree with what you have to say but to further your quote:
So does a non aviation degree! Which was my point.
CS
I agree with what you have to say but to further your quote:
Finally though, it gives me an 'in' into any Masters that I want
CS
splat,
Neither am I mate, as long as I consider myself better off with a degree than without one, that's all that matters.
Cheers,
TL
I'm not knocking degrees in general only people who think that because they have a degree are in some way better than those who don't.
Cheers,
TL
Nunc est bibendum
Yeah CS but no other degree was going to give me two of the three years credit transfer!! 
Perhaps you're right. Maybe doing an Aviation degree straight out of school isn't the best but if you want to fly, why not? Your CPL makes up about half of it and then the rest of the degree is 'handy'. That HAS to be better than doing a B Eng or B Comm and trying to do your CPL on the side doesn't it?
Anyway...
Perhaps you're right. Maybe doing an Aviation degree straight out of school isn't the best but if you want to fly, why not? Your CPL makes up about half of it and then the rest of the degree is 'handy'. That HAS to be better than doing a B Eng or B Comm and trying to do your CPL on the side doesn't it?
Anyway...
G'Day Keg
That's my point - doing an aviation degree you really only have half a degree more than someone who learnt to fly and did their subjects on weekends.
Doing a non aviation degree you have an entire degree more - and (provided it's not a graduate diploma in Rugby Studies as Mrs Stall found in a UNSW course guide the other day!) you will still have the prereqs for M. Av entry.
Horses for courses!
CS
That's my point - doing an aviation degree you really only have half a degree more than someone who learnt to fly and did their subjects on weekends.
Doing a non aviation degree you have an entire degree more - and (provided it's not a graduate diploma in Rugby Studies as Mrs Stall found in a UNSW course guide the other day!) you will still have the prereqs for M. Av entry.
Horses for courses!
CS
The Bar is Being Lifted As We Comment!
Recent newspaper articles indicate that a Basic degree will soon be the minimum to empty the rubbish bins, or do the wash-up. Employers are looking for MBA's and PhD's.
There's no reason to think that aviation is any different to other industries.
Reason? Everyone is going to Uni. Also, uni's are offering all sorts of degrees, of contrasting degrees of difficulty. There have been suggestions that standards are also dropping - driven by the 'overseas student x export income' mentality of the Uni's.
There are 'hard' and 'soft' degrees, and it would seem that business studies, aviation, and arts fall into the softies. They are like the proverbial a/h - everyone's got one! Science or economics would seem to be the degree to do as a basic, because they will open up more post grad or 2nd degree opportunities. There will soon be thousands of ATPL aspirants with soft aviation degrees, but few with others.
Will having a harder and different degree swing the job? Maybe not - the employer may consider you 'too well qualified' for a flying job - and so more likely to leave for better offers.
It's true that many have made it to the top without tertiary education - but the times they are a changing. I agree that having a degree is no indication of one's ability as a pilot - but I'd not go so far as to say there is an inverse relationship between them either.
If you're young, and still able to learn, then IMHO, you need to keep studying, because you cannot know what opportunity lies around the corner - just waiting for someone with your particular skill-set to grab it! Just what you should study is more difficult to recommend.
cheers,
Recent newspaper articles indicate that a Basic degree will soon be the minimum to empty the rubbish bins, or do the wash-up. Employers are looking for MBA's and PhD's.
There's no reason to think that aviation is any different to other industries.
Reason? Everyone is going to Uni. Also, uni's are offering all sorts of degrees, of contrasting degrees of difficulty. There have been suggestions that standards are also dropping - driven by the 'overseas student x export income' mentality of the Uni's.
There are 'hard' and 'soft' degrees, and it would seem that business studies, aviation, and arts fall into the softies. They are like the proverbial a/h - everyone's got one! Science or economics would seem to be the degree to do as a basic, because they will open up more post grad or 2nd degree opportunities. There will soon be thousands of ATPL aspirants with soft aviation degrees, but few with others.
Will having a harder and different degree swing the job? Maybe not - the employer may consider you 'too well qualified' for a flying job - and so more likely to leave for better offers.
It's true that many have made it to the top without tertiary education - but the times they are a changing. I agree that having a degree is no indication of one's ability as a pilot - but I'd not go so far as to say there is an inverse relationship between them either.
If you're young, and still able to learn, then IMHO, you need to keep studying, because you cannot know what opportunity lies around the corner - just waiting for someone with your particular skill-set to grab it! Just what you should study is more difficult to recommend.
cheers,
Thread Starter
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RV6 - Some great points. Having done a B.Comm at UQ, I can tell you it is a 'soft' degree. I was pissed 3 nights a week and still passed, so it really wasnt that hard. Put Arts and aviation into the soft degree basket as well.
Keg - Go and read my first post (topic starter). For those who want to FLY, a BAv is a waste of time. FLY....as in sit in a plane and fly the fcuker. Not sit in a qantas office in sydney and count beans. There will be plenty of time to do a degree and count beans after your medical goes down the toilet (touch wood). But if you want to be a pilot, dont worry about whether your associate diploma in aviation will get you credit for a Masters of aviation bean counting......... get in a plane and fly.
Im getting all worked up now, Id better stop.
bate
Keg - Go and read my first post (topic starter). For those who want to FLY, a BAv is a waste of time. FLY....as in sit in a plane and fly the fcuker. Not sit in a qantas office in sydney and count beans. There will be plenty of time to do a degree and count beans after your medical goes down the toilet (touch wood). But if you want to be a pilot, dont worry about whether your associate diploma in aviation will get you credit for a Masters of aviation bean counting......... get in a plane and fly.
Im getting all worked up now, Id better stop.
bate
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Aviation degrees
For anyone who in any way wants a non-biast and non -sceptical view of aviation degree's, pick up the October issue of Aircraft and Aerospace Asia Pacific.
The article gives aviation degrees a very good review, with the UNSW degree- who Ms. Stall says is a graduate diploma in rugby studies, coming out on top with the highest UAI of 80.5 and a syllabus dictated by an industry steering group made predominantly of Qantas management.
Quote from the article:
"... if you know that you want to persue a career in aviation you may as well persue an aviation-based degree to increase your attractiveness to potential employers.'
You don't need an aviation degree to get into the industry, but it shows that you have:
1. The aptitude to do the degree,
2. The commitment to a degree who's benefits are not immediately relevant,
3. Skills that will become more relevant as you gain more experience.
4. Something to fall back on in case you loose your job or cant fly for medical reasons.
5. The piece of paper. Skills are much harder to prove without evidence.
Remember, the airline views you as a long term INVESTMENT.
The skills you gain in the degree will benefit you most a little later in your career and the airlines know this. It also shows that you view yourself as being a long term investment.
There is a reason why airlines want degrees- aviation and others- and ultimately that counts more than someones views on PPRuNe, including my own.
Go and read the article.
The article gives aviation degrees a very good review, with the UNSW degree- who Ms. Stall says is a graduate diploma in rugby studies, coming out on top with the highest UAI of 80.5 and a syllabus dictated by an industry steering group made predominantly of Qantas management.
Quote from the article:
"... if you know that you want to persue a career in aviation you may as well persue an aviation-based degree to increase your attractiveness to potential employers.'
You don't need an aviation degree to get into the industry, but it shows that you have:
1. The aptitude to do the degree,
2. The commitment to a degree who's benefits are not immediately relevant,
3. Skills that will become more relevant as you gain more experience.
4. Something to fall back on in case you loose your job or cant fly for medical reasons.
5. The piece of paper. Skills are much harder to prove without evidence.
Remember, the airline views you as a long term INVESTMENT.
The skills you gain in the degree will benefit you most a little later in your career and the airlines know this. It also shows that you view yourself as being a long term investment.
There is a reason why airlines want degrees- aviation and others- and ultimately that counts more than someones views on PPRuNe, including my own.
Go and read the article.
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DOK001,
Good post, Makes one think......................however number 4. is an interesting comment, I personally would have thought a degree outside of aviation would be a little better for that one.
That aside, good post makes me see a slightly different side.
splat
Good post, Makes one think......................however number 4. is an interesting comment, I personally would have thought a degree outside of aviation would be a little better for that one.
That aside, good post makes me see a slightly different side.
splat
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Splat
It depends on whether you would still want to work in the industry, doesn't it? Losing a medical isn't the same as losing the love of flight.
I did the B. Av and then a psych diploma for the backup, still love the idea of planes in general, and if I lost a leg or an eye or an arm I would still like to at least have a legitimate excuse to get behind the pilots if not the controls.
If an airline hires me (should read WHEN
) they have my permission to keep me on if I lose my medical.
It depends on whether you would still want to work in the industry, doesn't it? Losing a medical isn't the same as losing the love of flight.
I did the B. Av and then a psych diploma for the backup, still love the idea of planes in general, and if I lost a leg or an eye or an arm I would still like to at least have a legitimate excuse to get behind the pilots if not the controls.
If an airline hires me (should read WHEN
) they have my permission to keep me on if I lose my medical.
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You young folk seem to have too much time on your hands arguing about the merits of advancing your knowledge in your chosen career. Back when I was a spring chicken we didn’t have the option of aviation degrees. Spent most of our spare time helping the mechanics strip super chargers and changing burnt cylinders. We grabbed any bit of info that came our way, after all there was a lot to learn and not much about in the way of training.
Working your way up to be a fleet manager or chief pilot required a lot of skill and a sound record of good decision making. You couldn’t expect much help outside your organisation either. The competition weren’t about to tell you their screw-ups. They just hoped that you made the same mistakes.
This day and age you don’t need to learn the hard way, just go to college and learn how Rollin King and Herb Kelleher got Southwest together. Check out the goof-ups that led to the demise of some of the greatest airlines in the States after deregulation. I bet some of you guys fly Part 121 in tired old burners that are almost as old as you are. And I’ll bet your boss never went to college and did an aviation degree. A good aviation manager uses every tool at his disposal to cut costs and beat the competition. Old airplanes don’t help. The new stuff are more fuel-efficient, enjoy longer TBO’s and carry more passengers per dollar seat mile, and backed with warranties.
Study CRM and aviation safety and see how to avoid the headlines. Took Tenerife to swing the airlines into CRM. Human factors had to be conceived back then, now you learn it at college. If aviation students didn't do doctorates on aviation studies then CRM would be left to a a bunch of shrinks with no idea how to manage flight duties or design cockpits.
Don’t know too many accountants who study medicine, unless they want a career change. So why become a pilot and study law or languages? If you want to be a computer geek or a lawyer then get out of the airplane and give your seat over to someone more deserving. And don’t knock the other guy because he is studying aviation, he might be your boss someday and run a damn fine airline that ensures your security and good salary. Or are some of you folk just trying to keep the playing field at your level?
________________
Mount'in Man
"I love mount'in women."
Working your way up to be a fleet manager or chief pilot required a lot of skill and a sound record of good decision making. You couldn’t expect much help outside your organisation either. The competition weren’t about to tell you their screw-ups. They just hoped that you made the same mistakes.
This day and age you don’t need to learn the hard way, just go to college and learn how Rollin King and Herb Kelleher got Southwest together. Check out the goof-ups that led to the demise of some of the greatest airlines in the States after deregulation. I bet some of you guys fly Part 121 in tired old burners that are almost as old as you are. And I’ll bet your boss never went to college and did an aviation degree. A good aviation manager uses every tool at his disposal to cut costs and beat the competition. Old airplanes don’t help. The new stuff are more fuel-efficient, enjoy longer TBO’s and carry more passengers per dollar seat mile, and backed with warranties.
Study CRM and aviation safety and see how to avoid the headlines. Took Tenerife to swing the airlines into CRM. Human factors had to be conceived back then, now you learn it at college. If aviation students didn't do doctorates on aviation studies then CRM would be left to a a bunch of shrinks with no idea how to manage flight duties or design cockpits.
Don’t know too many accountants who study medicine, unless they want a career change. So why become a pilot and study law or languages? If you want to be a computer geek or a lawyer then get out of the airplane and give your seat over to someone more deserving. And don’t knock the other guy because he is studying aviation, he might be your boss someday and run a damn fine airline that ensures your security and good salary. Or are some of you folk just trying to keep the playing field at your level?
________________
Mount'in Man
"I love mount'in women."
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Having joined the aviation industry many years ago, when degrees tended to be few and far between, and nearing the end of what has been an illustrious and active career, I decided to investigate the possibility of carrying out some extra-mural study with one of NZ's more popular universities.
I asked the person representing the university all the appropriate questions about completing a BAv majoring in Flying and was told that with my ATPL and flying experience that I couldn't do that but if I really wanted to complete a BAv, I could complete one majoring in Airline Management.
The University Rep also said that with my experience and qualifications that I should look at a MAv. When I asked how I would go about this, the response was, well actually we dont have these yet, but we do run MBA courses which are very interesting and where you meet some very high powered people from the aviation industry. When asked how much it would cost I was informed that it would be $20,000.
Now being near the end of my career, $20,000 is a lot of dosh that is going to be far more value in my wallet than some letters after my name and so after great deliberation I decided that if this extra mural study was only going to give me letters after my name then I reckoned that ATPL would have to suffice.
Cheers,
Eurocap ATPL.
I asked the person representing the university all the appropriate questions about completing a BAv majoring in Flying and was told that with my ATPL and flying experience that I couldn't do that but if I really wanted to complete a BAv, I could complete one majoring in Airline Management.
The University Rep also said that with my experience and qualifications that I should look at a MAv. When I asked how I would go about this, the response was, well actually we dont have these yet, but we do run MBA courses which are very interesting and where you meet some very high powered people from the aviation industry. When asked how much it would cost I was informed that it would be $20,000.
Now being near the end of my career, $20,000 is a lot of dosh that is going to be far more value in my wallet than some letters after my name and so after great deliberation I decided that if this extra mural study was only going to give me letters after my name then I reckoned that ATPL would have to suffice.
Cheers,
Eurocap ATPL.
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Chicken6, I see what your saying and agree, it would be nice to stay in aviation if you lost your medical (god forbid). However these jobs are few and far between (as previously discussed) and a management degree could be as much use to you.
I spose at the end of the day it dosen't matter what degree you do as long as you feel it is the correct one for you.
I spose at the end of the day it dosen't matter what degree you do as long as you feel it is the correct one for you.
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A few points:
1. In any job situation a degree puts you further up in the queue.
2. An aviation degree is becoming a requirement.
3. Present management pilots do not generally have degrees so there may be some prejudice.
4. Future management pilots will undoubtedly require degrees.
5. An aviation degree teaches useful aviation skills such as an increased awareness of aviation safety and CRM skills. Such knowledge may even save your bacon!
1. In any job situation a degree puts you further up in the queue.
2. An aviation degree is becoming a requirement.
3. Present management pilots do not generally have degrees so there may be some prejudice.
4. Future management pilots will undoubtedly require degrees.
5. An aviation degree teaches useful aviation skills such as an increased awareness of aviation safety and CRM skills. Such knowledge may even save your bacon!
