multi engine t/o safety brief- your views
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Who in the hell has the time to think of all the variables listed above when the a fan stops and the other is taking you to the crash site faster than you require.
Bottom line:
Do what you said you were going to do before you pushed the throttles up and more than likely you will survive ...... end thread.
Bottom line:
Do what you said you were going to do before you pushed the throttles up and more than likely you will survive ...... end thread.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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As Sheepy stated, you aim for max performance with your drills but you need to re-assess the situation as it happens. There could be many variables that become important in the heat of the moment. I am surprised that many here think they can accelerate a loaded piston twin on one engine while cleaning up your drag in the first about 100 feet without going down. I can see a directional loss of control or stall happening here. I fully endorse Spotlight in holding the gear on longer runways. I think its much more preferable getting back down and going for whatever you get out of the last few hundred feet or clearway, decelerating initially intact on the ground with a much lower impact speed. Rather than scratching along at 100 kts above obstacles and maybe getting away with it. I am shocked that airmen would base their judgements with regards to lawyer or investigator implication. Despite the contrary perception, today Aussies are much more pre-occupied with litigation than their US counterparts, sad indeed.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Hudson - Yep, but even then it depends on whether you're reading yank or pom books - some will refer to max pitch as the coarsest setting toward feather, while others will regards max pitch as the finest setting toward zero. My emphasis was / is on the 'Max' - pushing the levers forward in the correct sequence. Some others have a different mantra, like 'Rich, Pitch, Power, Gear, Flaps', or like the guy who does my annual renewal, insists on hearing '1,2,3,4,5' for the Phase 1 control sequences. Semantics really; as long as it works for you.
Counter Rotation - Correct, the blue line speed (89kt) is Vyse M(IFR)TOW; the Vxse M(IFR)TOW is 84kt. 102kt is the normal best rate of climb speed (Vy). The POH gives a SE RoC at Vy at M(IFR)TOW at standard ISA of 240 fpm; there are no figures for RoC for Vyse. In order to ascertain prior to T/O whether the required gradient can be met in the event of an EFATO, one must aim to achieve 102kt and 240fpm, then use the appropriate graph. This is not unique to the Aztec, the other Piper twins I have time in (PA34-200 & PAY3) share this system. Clyde (Clive?) and Walter do things a little differently.
Counter Rotation - Correct, the blue line speed (89kt) is Vyse M(IFR)TOW; the Vxse M(IFR)TOW is 84kt. 102kt is the normal best rate of climb speed (Vy). The POH gives a SE RoC at Vy at M(IFR)TOW at standard ISA of 240 fpm; there are no figures for RoC for Vyse. In order to ascertain prior to T/O whether the required gradient can be met in the event of an EFATO, one must aim to achieve 102kt and 240fpm, then use the appropriate graph. This is not unique to the Aztec, the other Piper twins I have time in (PA34-200 & PAY3) share this system. Clyde (Clive?) and Walter do things a little differently.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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POWER, AIRSPEED, DRAG.
Do these 3 items and your on your way, the last thing you want to be doing @ 50ft with one donkey out in an AZTEC is trying to remember what comes up and when.
As far as gear retraction with RWY remaining it all comes down to the type of aircraft and operational speeds. However if it's a puddle jumper like an AZTEC where you only have one hydraulic pump, you need to get that gear away as soon as your flying otherwise you chance of surviing if you loose the left engine is zero.
That said, I think everybody has valid points and all this threed is doing is stirring up that old A-CAT on the turps @ the club on a friday night argument.
However I wouldn't mind hearing from anybody who has had one fail just after take off............
Do these 3 items and your on your way, the last thing you want to be doing @ 50ft with one donkey out in an AZTEC is trying to remember what comes up and when.
As far as gear retraction with RWY remaining it all comes down to the type of aircraft and operational speeds. However if it's a puddle jumper like an AZTEC where you only have one hydraulic pump, you need to get that gear away as soon as your flying otherwise you chance of surviing if you loose the left engine is zero.
That said, I think everybody has valid points and all this threed is doing is stirring up that old A-CAT on the turps @ the club on a friday night argument.
However I wouldn't mind hearing from anybody who has had one fail just after take off............
Has anyone here actually had an engine failure at take off in a crappy light twin??
I had a 'partial' engine failure if you could call it that just after lift off on RWY 11 at Darwin in a 402B very close to MTOW (~2850 kg) at 25 deg C. After lift off (90 kts)and positive rate selected gear up and waited for the acceleration to 120 kts at the usual attitude. Noticed that it was taking forever to get to 120 kts and sensed that something was wrong but no noise change or variation in MP/RPM/FF. Gear was now up, flap was up (not used for TO in 402). At about 300 ft AGL massive fluctuations in RH FF, MP, and RPM simultaneously ( Ohh farrkk!! was what went through my head - not that blue,up,up,up,up,up dead,dead, close,feather stuff). Simultaneously Tower calls to ask if ops normal as he could see black smoke pissing out of the RH engine. Still got positive ROC(300 fpm) and briefly consider engine shutdown BUT it still seemed to be producing useful power and left it alone - nosed up slightly to come back to Blue. All this seemed to happen in a nanosecond .Requested LL abbreviated circuit for left base 18 and reduced power at 500 AGL for the tightest circuit I have ever done. Fluctuations dissappeared at power reduction and breathed easy. Told pax of obvious problem and landed normally. My point is that if it had been a total failure on that engine we would have been lucky to fly level even if I got it feathered quick and got onto blue line properly - both very big maybes in my mind!.
I had a 'partial' engine failure if you could call it that just after lift off on RWY 11 at Darwin in a 402B very close to MTOW (~2850 kg) at 25 deg C. After lift off (90 kts)and positive rate selected gear up and waited for the acceleration to 120 kts at the usual attitude. Noticed that it was taking forever to get to 120 kts and sensed that something was wrong but no noise change or variation in MP/RPM/FF. Gear was now up, flap was up (not used for TO in 402). At about 300 ft AGL massive fluctuations in RH FF, MP, and RPM simultaneously ( Ohh farrkk!! was what went through my head - not that blue,up,up,up,up,up dead,dead, close,feather stuff). Simultaneously Tower calls to ask if ops normal as he could see black smoke pissing out of the RH engine. Still got positive ROC(300 fpm) and briefly consider engine shutdown BUT it still seemed to be producing useful power and left it alone - nosed up slightly to come back to Blue. All this seemed to happen in a nanosecond .Requested LL abbreviated circuit for left base 18 and reduced power at 500 AGL for the tightest circuit I have ever done. Fluctuations dissappeared at power reduction and breathed easy. Told pax of obvious problem and landed normally. My point is that if it had been a total failure on that engine we would have been lucky to fly level even if I got it feathered quick and got onto blue line properly - both very big maybes in my mind!.
Props are for boats!
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Well done slice me thinks Ive flown that same plane many moons ago. Not sure what rego yours was, the one I flew was VH-**Y. It was a rough machine when I flew it and it had a few problems one of them being the intermittent power fluctuations in the cruise. Had it happen a multitude of times. Allways sought LAME advice and lined it off in the MR. but dunno if they finally fixed it, as I left for different pastures.
Exactly right about performance on one engine at MTOW. Its not proven for any of these twins under 5700kgs. And no one gets training at MTOW with abnormalities, other than Airline Pilots in Sims for types above 5700kgs.
Regards
Sheep
Exactly right about performance on one engine at MTOW. Its not proven for any of these twins under 5700kgs. And no one gets training at MTOW with abnormalities, other than Airline Pilots in Sims for types above 5700kgs.
Regards
Sheep
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Slice can I ask why if the a/c is climbing why raise the nose and get the speed back to blue line?Give your self a margin.I would rather have speed above blue line and 300 ftpm climb.
Well I think at the time I was trying to max the ROC - 300 fpm feels like ****** all when the ground is 200 feet below you. If the margin you refer to is an allowance for instantaneous speed washoff if the engined failed completely, well the conventional wisdom is additional altitude is more beneficial than addtional speed. If the engine had failed I would have had to lower the nose and accept an altitude loss while getting it feathered etc. to stay on blue line. In short with the engine still working, getting to a safe circuit height as quickly as possible seemed far more important. Additional speed with reduced ROC would have taken us a fair way further from the aiport. As it was, the circuit I did would have allowed me put the AC down somewhere within the airport boundary if things got really anal (maybe the taxi lanes on the North GA ramp - now that would be an arrival!
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Last edited by slice; 21st Sep 2003 at 15:22.
