|
Outstanding article to read
This article from the Wall Street Journal is a must read...
xxx It should be the answer to all USA wannabees who ask "how to become a pilot". xxx Also the answer to pilots from the rest of the world who ask "How to be a pilot in USA" and get a visa. How about a visa to work at a "7-Eleven"...??? Wages are better... Leave the USA to the 12 million "undocumented" aliens, let them fly planes and speak Spanish in US airspace... xxx I left the USA for Argentina in 1993... so far, 14 years of happiness... Nice people here, red carpet treatment, great food (fast food unknown)... Nor for the money, but being treated as a human being by a decent airline. xxx :) Happy contrails |
I agree.. as a US citizen and FAA licensed pilot, I left the states due to lack of job availability and to continue to travel and see the world.. so right now I'm in China, but I'm leaving in a week to CNMI, and I'll continue my aviation career doing charter flights... I'm not doing this for money, but money is a big part of it. I make more right now than I ever did as a flight instructor in the states, and that's still more than any F/O position in any US-based regional airline
|
DECs or DEFOs
Would we ever see DECs or DEFOs in the USA from abroad? Including the INS (Inmigration and Naturalization Service) approving work permits?
I sure hope so myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheers! AA |
All of you who want to be airline pilots in USA, read this...
www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php.t?=288355 You must be out of your mind to try to join airlines in USA, with such conditions well described by this text from the Wall Street Journal. xxx When I arrived in USA (issued a "Green Card" in 1968), it was a paradise, the pay was above average, that country meant "liberty" and it was the "land of milk and honey". Nothing is left of all that... This is 2007, not the 1960s... All you see is Hollywood idiot movies and CNN indoctrination... The "good life" - fast food McDonald's or "French restaurants" like Jacques in ze boxe... xxx All the USA is, now, is a good place to train to get a pilot licence... When PanAm declared bankruptcy in 1991, I lost a fortune in retirement investments. I could not even continue my career as 747 captain with another US air carrier. All they offered me is to be a 727 F/E... I was forced to sell my house and car, and declare personal bankruptcy. xxx Salaries of low cost US carriers or regionals are dismal. For years you will be a F/O for a yearly salary (and rare benefits) of some $25,000, in a country where an average house will cost you $250,000+ to buy. And maybe like me, you will furloughed many years and forced to work in other countries. xxx Why not be an airline pilot in another nation, at a salary of $75,000/year, or its equivalent in rupees, dirhams or pesos (it does not matter), and be able to buy a house or apartment for $100,000, in a nice area, and enjoy life as a upper class individual and respected professional, with all the benefits offered there, medical insurances, high retirement, and liberal travel benefits...? xxx I left USA in 1992 for good... To make room for idiots who want to go there. xxx :) Happy contrails |
BelArgUsa, wow you sound pretty hurt!!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, I could not open the link you sent!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cheers, AA P.S. I don't see myself as an idiot for hopping to go to the States for a flying job!! |
USA have changed a lot and many guys in their 50-60 told me the same.
USA is a great country to discover for 1-2 years, but I am very sad for all these citizen who are stuck and brainwashed in the USA for life and who still believe it is the best place. People go to USA thinking they are going to be rich in 2 months. That's all ! |
Dartagnan:
Who was naiive enough to believe that they could get rich in the US as a pilot, whether after two months or twenty years, unless they became very fortunate with real estate or another investment? Airlines either negotiate pay rates based upon motivating their staff to work harder, for the long term, or pay only enough to "fill c0ckp1t seats", no matter how bad the turnover (loss of pilots) is. Many companies simply do not care. This last method explains why not many pilots show up for class at the lowest-paying regionals etc. Airlines are usually focused upon short-term or long-term goals, but often not both. |
Thank God for ALPA
Without ALPA we would be working for less than peanuts and at the mercy of the airlines. We PILOTS are partly to blame for our spineless actions when it comes to dealing with management. Eventhough there is a shortage of qualified pilots and flights are being cancelled we have not been able raise the payrates. I don't see a silver lining around the cloud for future aviators.
|
The link requires a page value thus:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=288355&page=1 that should work .... |
Thank you for the corrected link, boogie-nicey, it is the one that I use to verify my sorry opinion of USA pilot employment situation. Every word in that Wall Street Journal report is correct. Many US pilots bail-out for jobs overseas.
xxx Yes, many pilots in my age bracket (50-60) - that many of you youngsters, are keen to insult in response to sound advice - have the same opinions as I have... If 20 of age again, yes, I would train in the USA for a licence, but not seek employment in USA under any circumstance. xxx There might be a (qualified) pilot shortage now in the USA... but plenty of pilots with CPL-IR-ME and 250 Cessna/Heavy hours are available. All these are busy playing CFI to share their superior aeronautical knowledge and experience to other young student pilots in US flight schools. The more qualified pilots, with ATPL and 2,000 hrs are finding underpaid F/O employment with the commuter carriers that bear an emblem of American, Delta or United on the tail... but that is not flying for AA, DAL or UAL... These more experienced F/Os are teamed with commuter captains, having what (?) 6 months extensive experience in the left seat of a Brasilia or CRJ... The blind leading the blind... I wish the passengers knew the level of experience of some of these crews... xxx Maybe, there will be a "hiring craze" in the next 2 years, 5,000 of you pilots will be hired. Now, let me give you my point of view on your career horoscope of your next 25 years as "airline pilot"... * You will be hired next year (having spent $80,000 to get there) to be a CRJ F/O, very low pay. * In 2011, you will become a captain on that CRJ, surviving with your salary. * Motel 6 near airports, commuting 3 times a month, maybe a divorce... * In 2012, you will be hired by Delta, the "real Delta" and be a 737 F/O... * First year wages again, commuting again. * In 2014, 10,000 pilots layoffs, because USA will declare war against Iran (?) or Zimbabwe (?) * Furlough until 2018, during which you will be... a CFI (maybe?)... moving 3 times, remarried... * Recalled, you will pass the next 10 years as F/O on the 787... wages start to be ok in 2025 (maybe?)... * Your airline will merge with another... loss of seniority for "the other list"... * And finally you will be captain in 2027... forced to move again. Retirement will come in 2035... * Hopefully your wife will have a little store selling mobile phones and perfumes to survive... Is that what you call a career of a professional?... xxx No thanks - USA, thank you... I prefer to fly A380s for Patagonian Air Service. :) Happy contrails |
BelArgUSA...there are in the US
|
BelArgUSA, that is quite some story and commentary with regards to the 'modern' aviation professional. I guess most fresh wannabes are well and truely hypnotised by the allure of aviation yet fail to fully comprehend the rather adverse affects on their life as a whole, such as marriage, wealth and indeed health. People seem to have the nose so close to the paper they don't see the page which comes around to bite them in later life.
I have read some of your posts on other threads too and the general theme appears to be the same, one of caution with an appreciation of reality. However I see the pilot numbers in coming years and indeed decades falling as most of todays wannabes/junior pilots grew up in the 70s, 80s where avaiation wasn't vilified and a 'man's country' image to it. Today in our fuddy -duddy culture of cotton wool and spectre of global green issues alot of today's youth will shy awy from aviation and head for sports reflexology therapy! :ok: Anyway thanks once BelArgUSA, really appreciate that honest appraisal from someone inside the industry. |
Dear Dynasty22 /
xxx My answer to you is that the 1973 October War in the Middle East, caused a terrible crisis in the US airline industry in 1974 through 1979... I do not have the statistics, but I would say that some 20-25% of the entire airline pilot group got furloughed starting late 1973 (I was among those pilots). It only got back to "normal" and airlines hiring in the late 1980s... xxx Shall we talk about the de-regulation of 1978... and the numerous airline bankruptcies, such as Braniff, Eastern, PanAm, which were major airlines. Also how many airlines were new, how many got out of business. Of the new entrants in the late 1970s, only one is succesful - SouthWest Airlines... Well over 20 or 30 airlines started, and disappeared within 2 or 3 years in the 1980s and 1990s... xxx In view of your age (no criticism of your young age), ask your parents about the lines at the gas stations all across the country in 1973/74, gas rationing, even licence plates could buy gas on even days etc... xxx You mention 100,000+ airline pilots... I dont have the latest ALPA figures, but 65,000 ring a bell to me for ALPA members, add to that near 10,000 with APA and 10,000 with the Teamsters... Funny is, in the listing of "active pilots" in the FAA pilot list that I have access to, I found my name/address/ratings, yet my FAA/ATPL has been inactive since 1993... So these statistics are not very accurate. How many pilot certificate holders are current, not that many. xxx My young friend, you are certainly an airline enthusiast, and you know all there is to be known about airplanes, being a pilot... but you should have a look at the US airline history and economics since 1945... There were a lot of drastic bad times, sorry to say. xxx You are enthusiastic as I said, and an optimist. I am the opposite. I see now the US airline industry from far away, and nothing appears to be good. Sadly, the chances for a young pilot to have a "great career" as airline pilot in USA are possibly less than 20, maybe 30% at best... another 20 or 30% will "survive" with low wages for their entire career, and nearly 50% will eventually abandon their ailine dreams. xxx I have a son, he just turned 18 of age... He as a PPL, just finished his I/R and will soon get CPL and ME, doing his training in Florida. Under NO circumstances will I permit him to seek employment with a US airline, based on my personal career experience. Beware of USA and Middle East politics. There is another "Vietnam" in the making, but you would not know about that era... probably will have even worse consequences... xxx I have a good friend with PIA Pakistan Airlines, that I trained to fly in jets many years ago. He is now a 737 captain. With his wages, he owns a little car and lives in Karachi, owns a beautiful large house, with 2 living-in servants, a cook and a maid. His standard of living is beyond the dreams of most US airline pilots, particularly those who are suffering the wages of LCC and commuter air carriers. xxx A word about USA economy... In 1983, the US Dollar was worth 2 of the present day equivalent in Euros. Nowadays, a US Dollar is worth 70 Euro cents, in other terms the dollar is worth 1/3 of what it was 25 years ago. You want to be a pilot...? OK... but look for a career overseas, not in the US. When all will go to hell in the next years, the US carriers will furlough again, and gasoline at $6.oo a gallon will mean the end of the Hummers, and the large 6-liter-engine SUVs which I see all the time when I visit Miami... The only airlines that will not be affected (maybe) will be cargo carriers... xxx Listen to a pilot who has spent 38 years of his life with airlines... All the best to you... :) Happy contrails |
enthusiast maybe but i am employed by a us carrier as an aviation mgt degree +5 yr and switching over to piloting...but how much longer before planes will be flying on alternative fuels and already evolving fuel efficient aircraft have the Middle East as a problem...besides that is not even my age...must of been a typo on my part
|
The few reasons I'm not flying in the US (I'm US Citizen and FAA licensed) is because of the following:
1) Job Security 2) Low Pay for regionals 3) There is more to the world than the US The only airlines I would fly for is major airline Cargo, Fed Ex, UPS, Atlas, NWA Cargo, etc etc.. but since I'm in no hurry to fly a 747 (Even though I want to fly MD11s) I'm happy being an expat flying piston'd charters |
He's Right
As a career pilot in the US and a lifelong resident, I must agree. The industry went to sh!t. There are some decent opportunities worldwide, and if the market for pilots gets tighter elsewhere, I'd go for it myself.
We are not respected here. They raid our retirements here. They steal our family health care coverage here. They use bankruptcy laws to abrogate our labor agreements here, and use our wages as a cushion for management ineptitude. And that's just the major items. I've had the privilege of meeting a few promising young CFI's at the flight school I hang out at. A few have gone overseas to some decent positions. They have the right idea. Why do I hang out at a flight school? Because as a 737 Capt., I have to supplement my wages in order to support my family, so I do some advanced instruction. The owner is a nice guy that doesn't mind letting me use his planes. I enjoy teaching, and it's my own deal, which I like - but it does prove a point: the good old days ended a quarter century ago. It just plane sucks now. |
If I could afford to retire early in a few years, I would, provided that there were a very good small company which operated whichever jets or turboprops and wanted to treat their staff well (and have good commuting policies). It is difficult to want to leave the country with various older and much younger family not too far away ("Sweet home...).
I've not yet heard of any smaller airlines having intelligent, (long-term) committed managements, except for two or three exceptions. There will be far too many FOs at NetJets waiting to upgrade by then. |
Transitioning from US to UK
I apologize if this has already been covered, but I read the thread and couldn't find much on it.
I am a US Navy pilot flying C-9s (McDonnell Douglas 30 series). I was raised in Europe and am intent on flying there someday, but have absolutely no idea where to start. I've been told that none of my ratings count, but surely my hours do???? If ANYONE can shed some light on this topic for me, and perhaps forward some links that would be useful, it would be greatly appreciated. I've looked briefly at Virgin Atlantic and British Airways. How do these stack up to US airlines? I can't seem to find a payscale anywhere. |
We are not respected here. They raid our retirements here. They steal our family health care coverage here. They use bankruptcy laws to abrogate our labor agreements here, and use our wages as a cushion for management ineptitude. And that's just the major items. The hell with it, I just went for the contract gig and if it doesn't work? I'm done with flying. After 24 years I've had just about enough airplanes to last me a lifetime. Sorry for the venting:eek: |
TheDominican, why not spread your wings further afield as BelArgUSA says. Perhaps you could venture down to the middle east where a plethora of new carriers have sprung up over the last few years whilst others are undergoing a rapid expansion. The pay will be better and you won't be dragged down by union negotiations that just fail to alleviate the longer term financial woes.
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 09:16. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.