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Ohana to Hawaiian Airlines Agreement

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Ohana to Hawaiian Airlines Agreement

Old 30th Aug 2019, 10:31
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Ohana to Hawaiian Airlines Agreement

I recently encountered some articles mentioning an agreement between Ohana and Hawaiian Airlines. Has anyone heard about this or can confirm its validity? The agreement supposedly allows Ohana pilots to transition to Hawaiian following a two year contract with Ohana--and, of course, if the pilot is in good standing with the company.

I have posted before in this forum. My husband is a foreign pilot (first officer with EASA license, airbus type-rating, and 2000+ flying hours) trying to enter the aviation business in the US. He currently holds a valid green card. We know that applying directly to the legacies would be almost impossible, considering that he hasn't accrued any 121 TPIC hours. But perhaps this Ohana agreement might be a nice option to lead him towards flying with one of the majors in a few years.

Ohana looks like a regional. Does anyone know if they require 121 TPIC hours? Or would they accept my husband's TPIC hours under his EASA license?
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 11:23
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Have you seen this ? The term "flow through" can be misleading with details in the fine print.

My understanding of Part 121.436 is that for a pilot to enter to a captain position, he must have 1000 hours of FAA Part 121 (Part 121 SIC fills that requirement) time so it doesn't appear your husband's EASA TPIC would satisfy that requirement. People who know more than I can correct my impression as necessary:

https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/careers/first-officer

https://www.cbizems.com/extranet/JobSearch.aspx?id=128861&aid=17088

http://www.empireairlines.com/careers/ohana/

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/121.436

Last edited by bafanguy; 30th Aug 2019 at 11:39.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 11:52
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Thank you so much for these resources bafanguy. Hmmm. "Flow through" does look a little more complicated than at first glance.

Do you know, by any chance, if Ohana-Hawaiian is the only airline with this 'flow through' program, or are there other regionals with some kind of program that connects the candidates with a major following fulfillment of some requirements?
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 12:23
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I guess I read your original post wrong bafanguy.

When I looked through the links provided, the program appears to be hiring for both captain and FO positions. Unless I am reading something incorrectly, it looks like my husband would fly with Ohana as a FO until he gets promoted to a captain position--after flying 1000 hours with Ohana (unless flying with Ohana doesn't fall under Part 121). Then he could fulfill the 200 hours required to fly as captain before transitioning to Hawaiian.
  • Complete a minimum of 400 hours (of which 200 hours must be as Captain at ‘Ohana) of flying the line as a pilot for ‘Ohana in the twelve (12) months immediately preceding the class date offered by Hawaiian Airlines
I understand his EASA TPIC hours will not be counted as legitimate PIC hours in the US since he was always flying with a commanding officer (i.e. captain). However, they would be considered as flying hours, correct?
Looking through the requirements for FO candidates with Ohana, this is what I understand:
1) 1500 TT (flying hours, correct?) My husband definitely fulfills this.
2) 250 PIC (It looks like none of my husband's turbine flying hours, under his EASA license, will be considered PIC. However, he did train in the US, flying under an FAA PPL, accruing 105 PIC hours with a propellor aircraft. Would this be considered? If so, he would need to somehow accrue another 145 PIC hours to fulfill this requirement.)
3) 50 MEL (This is for multi-engine I imagine. My husband fulfills this.)
4) And of course valid FAA licenses and medical. Which he would convert before applying to this program, if he decides to go this direction.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 12:59
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Originally Posted by IllinoisDavidson View Post
"Flow through" does look a little more complicated than at first glance.

or are there other regionals with some kind of program that connects the candidates with a major following fulfillment of some requirements?
ID,

Yes, there are other hook-ups between regionals and mainline. American's wholly-owned regionals have, in my mind, what constitutes a true flow through without further interview. However, the time to "flow" can be lengthy and is somewhat disputed for that reason but apparently it works...after a while.

Delta's wholly-owned regional, Endeavor, has the Delta Guaranteed Interview (DGI) available after some conditions (which escape me at the moment) are met. But it's only a standard interview with the success rate also debated. Found it:

http://www.endeavorair.com/content/e...I_Program.html

UAL has the CPP program with its affiliated regionals which stands for Career Path Program or words to that effect. The details of that one really escape me but it's also much debated as to effectiveness. IIUC, it also is a ramp up to an interview.

Alaska Airlines has this with Horizon Air:

https://horizonair-pilot.jobs/pilot-pathways-program/

Trans States has some kind of deal with Frontier:

http://www.transstates.net/careers/p...s/default.aspx

All these programs are discussed over on Airline Pilot Central:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional


Hope this answers your questions at least until someone comes along with better details. And while you may find exceptions, I think US airlines only consider "PIC" time as that when the pilot served as the captain of record so to speak...signed the dispatch release, etc. So yes, your husband would have to fly under Part 121 as F/O for that 1,000 hours to be be eligible for upgrade if/when captain slots become available.

Last edited by bafanguy; 30th Aug 2019 at 14:35.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 15:56
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The only real flow that is not mentioned by Bafanguy is with Envoy. There you don’t need to do an interview with AA, just wait for your number to come up to automatically transfer to AA mainline. Only thing is, it takes approximately 8 years for a new hire, not the advertised 5 years. But of course he can always apply everywhere else out of the flow in the meantime.
If you decide to go the Ohana route, look close at the salary and at the cost of living in Hawaii. I hope you’ve saved a lot of money to survive. And look well at first years pay at Hawaiian as well. It’s even less than the regionals...
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Old 31st Aug 2019, 15:38
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Thanks so much bafanguy for all of this information. You really seem to know your stuff when it comes to aviation. I will definitely look through this in more detail. Upon first glance, you are right, a lot of these 'flow through' programs don't really 'flow.' I keep reading about how desperate the aviation business is becoming in the US, with the mass exodus of highly experienced captains retiring at one time; but I guess they aren't that desperate enough to make these programs more streamlined between the regionals and the majors.

And you are correct Sunrig, the pay is abysmal at Hawaiian, especially considering the cost of living on the island. The Ohana-Hawaiian route is one of my husband's last choice. We are exploring everything right now to see what is possible.
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Old 31st Aug 2019, 19:52
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Originally Posted by IllinoisDavidson View Post
Upon first glance, you are right, a lot of these 'flow through' programs don't really 'flow.' I keep reading about how desperate the aviation business is becoming in the US, with the mass exodus of highly experienced captains retiring at one time; but I guess they aren't that desperate enough to make these programs more streamlined between the regionals and the majors.
ID,

Yes, there has been much said about the "shortage" here but there isn't one at the level your husband is targeting. To the contrary, there's a huge abundance of qualified applicants which makes getting on a tough nut to crack. So much so the HR droids have cooked up lots of claptrap and hurdles to jump just to sort out the large number of well qualified applicants.

There are lots of of retirements at the legacy level but there will be no problem filling these slots assuming they even need to be filled (recession, economic upheaval, etc). In a crunch, airlines can just slow down or stop hiring and let age-related attrition shrink the airline to the size needed to deal with whatever the situation is. That's very hypothetical though...but not implausible.

As for these pathways from regional to legacy, many people say that they are just schemes to attract pilots to a sector of aviation that might not otherwise draw the necessary numbers...and keep them there as long as possible at reduced pay rates by "dangling the carrot". The regionals do a very large percentage of mainline flying under the mainline umbrella...as much as 40%. The numbers are fluid but large. So mainline NEEDS regional feed and at the lowest operating cost.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be hard data about how these schemes are administered or the success rate. Lots of anecdotal chatter about it though. I'm a devoted cynic and tend to agree about the purpose of them but my opinion is only worth what you paid for it.

Tell your husband to include the LCCs, UPS and FedEx in his targets. They seem to be just as tough to get on with but just might be a decent place to be long term.

Last edited by bafanguy; 31st Aug 2019 at 21:37.
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Old 1st Sep 2019, 10:42
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Originally Posted by bafanguy View Post
As for these pathways from regional to legacy, many people say that they are just schemes to attract pilots to a sector of aviation that might not otherwise draw the necessary numbers...and keep them there as long as possible at reduced pay rates by "dangling the carrot". The regionals do a very large percentage of mainline flying under the mainline umbrella...as much as 40%. The numbers are fluid but large. So mainline NEEDS regional feed and at the lowest operating cost.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be hard data about how these schemes are administered or the success rate. Lots of anecdotal chatter about it though. I'm a devoted cynic and tend to agree about the purpose of them but my opinion is only worth what you paid for it.

Tell your husband to include the LCCs, UPS and FedEx in his targets. They seem to be just as tough to get on with but just might be a decent place to be long term.
Thank you bafanguy once again for your insight in this matter. This definitely illuminates the situation for my husband and where his resume actually stands experience-wise. What you read in the news makes it sound like it's a lot easier to enter into the US aviation business from the outside. It is a competitive market for sure; for some reason I thought the timing (and the mass exodus of COs) may have eased up on that competitiveness for applicants at my husband's level. It is good to read some honest truth.

We are definitely looking into the LCCs. Spirit and Frontier for example have Airbus fleets; my husband really would love to continue to fly with that plane in the US, if even possible. I do have a question about FedEx/UPS. If my husband has his heart set on commercial passenger carriers with ER routes (like the majors/legacies), would it set him back, career-wise, if he flew with FedEx/UPS for 5-8 years? He would be getting the experience of flying in the US, but solely with cargo. I'm not sure if that would translate, or look good, on his future application to the legacies.
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Old 1st Sep 2019, 13:44
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ID,

I may have used clumsy sentence structure by appearing to lump FedEx and UPS in the same statement with the LCCs. FedEx and UPS are VERY good jobs and at least as competitive, if not more so, for applicants as the big passenger carriers. Cargo moves at night so people have to be content spending a big chunk of their working hours on the wrong side of the clock. As usual, more seniority will give a pilot more options of a schedule that he finds more palatable.

There's nothing wrong with flying for a good cargo carrier. FedEx and UPS are undoubtedly career-destination airlines...make no mistake about it. And each has plenty of wide-body international flying if that's a hard preference.

One can always choose to move on to a passenger carrier if they want and a few probably do these days but likely not too many, I'd guess.
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