US Regional Headhunting
Thread Starter
"Gotta keep the regional feed going... "
Zonda,
Certainly true. But, is it just casting the widest possible net or a sign of desperation ?
I wouldn't get too giddy over that guaranteed interview thing.
Zonda,
Certainly true. But, is it just casting the widest possible net or a sign of desperation ?
I wouldn't get too giddy over that guaranteed interview thing.
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For what it's worth, I ended up at an Express Jet recruiting event last week. Not that I'm remotely considering going to work there, I was lured there under false premises. (Free pizza was offered and I didn't ask enough questions.) they were selling their Delta flow thru program, 3 years at Express Jet and an interview with Delta for qualifying pilots.
Thread Starter
AxA,
If XJT has some deal with Delta, I hope they actually hire people as a result. In the past few years, UAL, via some formalized deal, hired twice as many XJT pilots as Delta did.
I'd be highly suspicious of any of these guaranteed interview deals. Ask any Endeavor pilot. :-(
If XJT has some deal with Delta, I hope they actually hire people as a result. In the past few years, UAL, via some formalized deal, hired twice as many XJT pilots as Delta did.
I'd be highly suspicious of any of these guaranteed interview deals. Ask any Endeavor pilot. :-(
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XJT now has guaranteed interviews for both UAL and DAL...if you fly for the old Express Jet u interview with UAL, if you fly for the old ASA, you interview with DAL.
Thread Starter
"...if you fly for the old Express Jet u interview with UAL, if you fly for the old ASA, you interview with DAL. "
atpcliff,
Ah so...that explains it. I didn't pick up on that distinction.
Until March of this year, XJT put out incredibly detailed monthly pilot attrition summaries covering both sides of the XJT "house". Someone really did a lot of work to compile them...and they were revealing. If I could, I'd put one up here for you to see. UAL hired FAR more XJT pilots than DL. And when one looks at what's been happening to the Endeavor pilots as they interview via that deal with DL (a PWA side letter agreement, IIUC), it appears DL is reluctant to hire away pilots from their feeders, particularly captains. It takes longer to make a captain than a FO.
Overall, I wouldn't be terribly enthused, or make any career plans, based on the promise of an interview arrangement connected with DL. As big as the amount of regional feed is into the legacy side, they can't afford to hire away pilots if it damages the ability to provide that feed.
atpcliff,
Ah so...that explains it. I didn't pick up on that distinction.
Until March of this year, XJT put out incredibly detailed monthly pilot attrition summaries covering both sides of the XJT "house". Someone really did a lot of work to compile them...and they were revealing. If I could, I'd put one up here for you to see. UAL hired FAR more XJT pilots than DL. And when one looks at what's been happening to the Endeavor pilots as they interview via that deal with DL (a PWA side letter agreement, IIUC), it appears DL is reluctant to hire away pilots from their feeders, particularly captains. It takes longer to make a captain than a FO.
Overall, I wouldn't be terribly enthused, or make any career plans, based on the promise of an interview arrangement connected with DL. As big as the amount of regional feed is into the legacy side, they can't afford to hire away pilots if it damages the ability to provide that feed.
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As big as the amount of regional feed is into the legacy side, they can't afford to hire away pilots if it damages the ability to provide that feed.
Thread Starter
cliff,
It's likely that all the regional pilots who want to move on will do that regardless. So, one way or another, they'll be gone with the only variable being the timeline.
It's likely that all the regional pilots who want to move on will do that regardless. So, one way or another, they'll be gone with the only variable being the timeline.
Last edited by bafanguy; 8th Nov 2016 at 14:03.
Thread Starter
Thread Starter
AA subsidiary, Envoy, makes announcement re RW pilots moving to the regional:
Calling Military Helicopter Pilots: Join the Envoy Rotor Transition Program | Envoy Air
Calling Military Helicopter Pilots: Join the Envoy Rotor Transition Program | Envoy Air
Thread Starter
Envoy statement posted 16 Nov. Looks like they're pretty serious...givin' the bushes a good shake:
“ 'When you add up Envoy’s increased signing bonus, our $20,000 First Officer retention bonus and guaranteed flow-through to American Airlines, without any further interview – it’s clear that our pilots are among the most highly compensated in the industry,' said Ric Wilson, Vice President Flight Operations."
Envoy boosts industry-leading starting pay to $60,000! | Envoy Air
“ 'When you add up Envoy’s increased signing bonus, our $20,000 First Officer retention bonus and guaranteed flow-through to American Airlines, without any further interview – it’s clear that our pilots are among the most highly compensated in the industry,' said Ric Wilson, Vice President Flight Operations."
Envoy boosts industry-leading starting pay to $60,000! | Envoy Air
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The regionals will fight to get as many pilots to fill their contractual obligations and gain a share of profit, as pay increases, they'll negotiate higher cost based agreements with the mainlines, leading all in all to higher fares, which in turn means less air travel! This "revolution" to instill higher pay to attract talent is a short term solution. Sad to see the regional CRJ/ERJ/Ejet in the US looked upon as "starter aircraft" meaning a pilot would only join knowing he'd leave to a mainline. Give it a few years, the regional flight decks will be full of 1500 hr guys and 3000 hr captains all who don't really wanna be there tomorrow....i wonder what risk that would create
Thread Starter
A couple of thoughts from the Peanut Gallery:
With regionals increasing pay rates, promising a mainline interview or offering an alleged flow through to mainline, it would be interesting to see if they now have an increased number of people applying and coming to class as a result. But, for the data to mean anything definitive, it would have to be filtered to show those who had the quals to have applied BEFORE the latest offerings rather than those just now hitting 1500 (or r-ATP mins where applicable). This would either support or dispel ALPA's contention that the regional "shortage" was a pay shortage rather than a pilot shortage.
Perhaps a fix, if needed, would be moving all affiliated regional pilots into mainline and just be done with it. I don't see any indication this is happening. In fact, quite the contrary. AA wholly-owneds are dangling the flow through as a carrot. And Delta CEO, Ed Bastian, just unequivocally stated he had no intention of moving Endeavor under the mainline umbrella.
With regionals increasing pay rates, promising a mainline interview or offering an alleged flow through to mainline, it would be interesting to see if they now have an increased number of people applying and coming to class as a result. But, for the data to mean anything definitive, it would have to be filtered to show those who had the quals to have applied BEFORE the latest offerings rather than those just now hitting 1500 (or r-ATP mins where applicable). This would either support or dispel ALPA's contention that the regional "shortage" was a pay shortage rather than a pilot shortage.
Perhaps a fix, if needed, would be moving all affiliated regional pilots into mainline and just be done with it. I don't see any indication this is happening. In fact, quite the contrary. AA wholly-owneds are dangling the flow through as a carrot. And Delta CEO, Ed Bastian, just unequivocally stated he had no intention of moving Endeavor under the mainline umbrella.
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The falsehoods about airlines not sponsoring work visas are amusing, because I want to give the reality. I am working for a US regional right now, and they sponsored my H1B work visa. A pilot DOES qualify for a H1B under the technicalities of immigration law. The only key is if a company wants to. If anyone wants to know more about my situation, PM me.
Thread Starter
"A pilot DOES qualify for a H1B under the technicalities of immigration law.... The only key is if a company wants to."
FC86,
Interesting. Most people looking at the visa issue are most likely NOT experts or even knowledgeable on the subject. And dealing with our Imperial Federal Government is an exercise in frustration.
I've followed this issue for a while and have NOT seen any company admit they'll help an expat applicant with the visa process...except for Republic and that was reputedly unsuccessful. This from a January, 2016, WSJ article:
"Mr. Bedford called the increased training requirement the “most significant headwind” to bringing in new pilots. The airline last year sought to take advantage of a slump in Brazilian air traffic to bring in foreign pilots, but was unable to get visas for them to fly in the U.S., he said."
Google this title of the article for a readable link: "Republic Airways CEO Says Labor Accord Has Halved Pilot Losses"
While you're understandably reluctant to mention the airline you fly for, could you just give some very general details of how you went about getting where you are ?
Did you just apply from overseas with no connections to the USA that would give you a head start or advantage, i.e., no relatives here or previous visas of any kind ?
Did the employer freely offer to facilitate the visa process for you when you applied...or did you have to ask for help ?
Did you have FAA licenses when you applied ?
I'm sure there are lots of people who'd love to hear how it works.
FC86,
Interesting. Most people looking at the visa issue are most likely NOT experts or even knowledgeable on the subject. And dealing with our Imperial Federal Government is an exercise in frustration.
I've followed this issue for a while and have NOT seen any company admit they'll help an expat applicant with the visa process...except for Republic and that was reputedly unsuccessful. This from a January, 2016, WSJ article:
"Mr. Bedford called the increased training requirement the “most significant headwind” to bringing in new pilots. The airline last year sought to take advantage of a slump in Brazilian air traffic to bring in foreign pilots, but was unable to get visas for them to fly in the U.S., he said."
Google this title of the article for a readable link: "Republic Airways CEO Says Labor Accord Has Halved Pilot Losses"
While you're understandably reluctant to mention the airline you fly for, could you just give some very general details of how you went about getting where you are ?
Did you just apply from overseas with no connections to the USA that would give you a head start or advantage, i.e., no relatives here or previous visas of any kind ?
Did the employer freely offer to facilitate the visa process for you when you applied...or did you have to ask for help ?
Did you have FAA licenses when you applied ?
I'm sure there are lots of people who'd love to hear how it works.
Last edited by bafanguy; 1st Dec 2016 at 20:07.
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H1B Visa Salary Database 2016
Note: these are really LCAs (labor condition certifications) for the past two calendar years only (2015 and 2016).
The vast majority of these LCAs were filled not by H1Bs but by Australian E-3 holders. However a few do hold H1Bs instead.
Whether or not an airline pilot really meets the "technicalities of immigration" is actually an open question. Right now approvals are being issued, so we can leave it at that for the time being.
Note: these are really LCAs (labor condition certifications) for the past two calendar years only (2015 and 2016).
The vast majority of these LCAs were filled not by H1Bs but by Australian E-3 holders. However a few do hold H1Bs instead.
Whether or not an airline pilot really meets the "technicalities of immigration" is actually an open question. Right now approvals are being issued, so we can leave it at that for the time being.
Thread Starter
PK4,
Well...that's pretty interesting. But I don't know what to make of it. Not even sure what questions to ask to understand what's going on with regionals, expats and visas.
Does it mean the airlines listed made application to use H1Bs but filled the spots with E-3s instead ?
Did the airlines officially act on behalf of expat applicants vs applicants getting a visa on their own and THEN applying ?
Well...that's pretty interesting. But I don't know what to make of it. Not even sure what questions to ask to understand what's going on with regionals, expats and visas.
Does it mean the airlines listed made application to use H1Bs but filled the spots with E-3s instead ?
Did the airlines officially act on behalf of expat applicants vs applicants getting a visa on their own and THEN applying ?
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A pilot cannot obtain an H1B or E3 visa on his/her own; the prospective employer must make the petition.
H1B is the general mechanism which allows employers to hire foreign specialty occupation non-immigrant workers.
The first step in the H1B process is for the employer to file a Labor Condition Application (LCA) with the US Department of Labor. In the LCA the employer attests that they intend to hire the foreign pilot at prevailing wages (or higher), under standard working conditions, that they are not circumventing any labor disputes, etc.
If the Department of Labor agrees, they will certify the LCA. Only then can the employer petition the US immigration services (USCIS) for an H1B visa.
Over the years, two new specialty occupation worker visas were introduced: the H1B1 (for citizens of Singapore + Chile) and the E3 (for Australians). But the first step of the process remains the same: filing the LCA. Hence today the LCA database contains applications relating to the three different visas (H1B, H1B1, E3).
By law, these visas can only be used to hire workers for specialty occupations, defined as occupations requiring "attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in the specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum for entry into the occupation in the United States".
But airline pilot positions in the US generally do not require a bachelor's degree, and pilot training has not traditionally been considered equivalent to a degree. So the use of these visas to hire airline pilots is somewhat controversial.
H1B is the general mechanism which allows employers to hire foreign specialty occupation non-immigrant workers.
The first step in the H1B process is for the employer to file a Labor Condition Application (LCA) with the US Department of Labor. In the LCA the employer attests that they intend to hire the foreign pilot at prevailing wages (or higher), under standard working conditions, that they are not circumventing any labor disputes, etc.
If the Department of Labor agrees, they will certify the LCA. Only then can the employer petition the US immigration services (USCIS) for an H1B visa.
Over the years, two new specialty occupation worker visas were introduced: the H1B1 (for citizens of Singapore + Chile) and the E3 (for Australians). But the first step of the process remains the same: filing the LCA. Hence today the LCA database contains applications relating to the three different visas (H1B, H1B1, E3).
By law, these visas can only be used to hire workers for specialty occupations, defined as occupations requiring "attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in the specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum for entry into the occupation in the United States".
But airline pilot positions in the US generally do not require a bachelor's degree, and pilot training has not traditionally been considered equivalent to a degree. So the use of these visas to hire airline pilots is somewhat controversial.
Thread Starter
PK4,
Thanks. That sheds some light on the issue but raises a question or two.
Each entry on the list would represent ONE person for whom a visa was sought rather than some blanket application to admit several ?
The fact that the listed regionals made formal application to use expat visa holders must mean they intend to do just that or they wouldn't have expended the administrative time/money doing it ?
So, the assumption is that they did, in fact, hire expats despite statements like this from the Expressjet (several entries on that list) pilot hiring website:
"Authorization to work in the United States without sponsorship"
I don't understand why they'd not just go ahead and admit what they're doing. It's been speculated they don't want to pay expenses to get an applicant to/from the USA for interview. Hard to say for sure, but I don't see how that's an issue considering what people are willing to do to get a job these days (P2F, buy type ratings, etc.). It'd be a smallish expense for a person to get a cheap ticket to the USA for interview if required. And there's the Skype interview and online knowledge testing, etc., for the initial cull.
As for the bachelor's degree, the "requirement" for one is established by the government criteria rather than an airline's advertised "requirements" ? Some carriers don't list it as a requirement and some just say it's "preferred" while others won't give you the time of day without it (kinda makes it a "requirement" in that context).
I've thought this visa thing was along the lines of "where there's smoke..." but the info so far has been a bit anecdotal with people understandably hesitant to spill the beans publicly. Still very interesting.
Thanks. That sheds some light on the issue but raises a question or two.
Each entry on the list would represent ONE person for whom a visa was sought rather than some blanket application to admit several ?
The fact that the listed regionals made formal application to use expat visa holders must mean they intend to do just that or they wouldn't have expended the administrative time/money doing it ?
So, the assumption is that they did, in fact, hire expats despite statements like this from the Expressjet (several entries on that list) pilot hiring website:
"Authorization to work in the United States without sponsorship"
I don't understand why they'd not just go ahead and admit what they're doing. It's been speculated they don't want to pay expenses to get an applicant to/from the USA for interview. Hard to say for sure, but I don't see how that's an issue considering what people are willing to do to get a job these days (P2F, buy type ratings, etc.). It'd be a smallish expense for a person to get a cheap ticket to the USA for interview if required. And there's the Skype interview and online knowledge testing, etc., for the initial cull.
As for the bachelor's degree, the "requirement" for one is established by the government criteria rather than an airline's advertised "requirements" ? Some carriers don't list it as a requirement and some just say it's "preferred" while others won't give you the time of day without it (kinda makes it a "requirement" in that context).
I've thought this visa thing was along the lines of "where there's smoke..." but the info so far has been a bit anecdotal with people understandably hesitant to spill the beans publicly. Still very interesting.
Last edited by bafanguy; 2nd Dec 2016 at 11:15.
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1. An LCA is for an individual application (not bulk)
2. Statements on job postings such as ExpressJet's simply indicate preferences, not hard requirements or a promise not to hire those not meeting the preferences.
3. The bachelors degree requirement is gauged industry-wide for similar job positions. Besides in the case of ExpressJet (and most regionals) they explicitly state that a degree is preferred but not mandatory.
4. From the data, we can extrapolate that compared to all the pilots out there being hired, extremely few are coming in via H1B and only a handful via E3s.
(Note: the data isn't the complete list of pilot non-immigrant applications. Other companies may hire under alternate job titles such as "Captain" etc. , or under titles which typically would require a degree, such as Test or Engineering pilots.)
5. I'm guessing many if not most of these hires may be through recruiters and/or referrals.
2. Statements on job postings such as ExpressJet's simply indicate preferences, not hard requirements or a promise not to hire those not meeting the preferences.
3. The bachelors degree requirement is gauged industry-wide for similar job positions. Besides in the case of ExpressJet (and most regionals) they explicitly state that a degree is preferred but not mandatory.
4. From the data, we can extrapolate that compared to all the pilots out there being hired, extremely few are coming in via H1B and only a handful via E3s.
(Note: the data isn't the complete list of pilot non-immigrant applications. Other companies may hire under alternate job titles such as "Captain" etc. , or under titles which typically would require a degree, such as Test or Engineering pilots.)
5. I'm guessing many if not most of these hires may be through recruiters and/or referrals.