First Pilot Job And Type Rating

[FromRome]

Hi guys,
First of all congratulations for the beautiful community you guys made, I been reading a lot here when I was in need of answer.

Well today i just got my first pilot job in a charter company operating from Sanford international, FL

I was offer to fly the IAI Westwind II, it's an old A/C and from what I been reading online is really good on maintenance and cheap for the costumers.

I will have to pay for my type rating at Flight Safety in Wilmington (they will give me the money back during the 2 years contract that i am about to sign); I have some concerns regarding the type rating on this A/C... since my low hours I been suggest from the HR to do a SIC course (that i will still pay full price as a TR) and eventually when I feel comfortable finish the TR, she suggested this path because in case of a failure of one of the exams they will have to cancel the contract for insurance policy. I am not sure is a good idea anyway..
The class starts mid of February, I would like to prepare my self in the best way so I'm ready to accept any suggestions.

[Amadis of Gaul]

I believe the airplane is actually called Westwind, not Westgate, but let's not sweat the small stuff...

Originally Posted by From rome

I will have to pay for my type rating at Flight Safety in Wilmington (they will give me the money back during the 2 years contract that i am about to sign); I have some concerns regarding the type rating on this A/C... since my low hours I been suggest from the HR to do a SIC course (that i will still pay full price as a TR) and eventually when I feel comfortable finish the TR, she suggested this path because in case of a failure of one of the exams they will have to cancel the contract for insurance policy. I am not sure is a good idea anyway..

A lot of red flags in that statement. I happen to have a fairly big problem with expecting people to pay for their own training, but let's leave that out of the discussion for now. The biggest problem I see with what you describe is what would prevent them from firing you in, say, 22 months, and thus not have to pay you back for your training? They can then hire another guy, make him pay for his own training, keep him 22 months and so on....

As regards to PIC vs SIC type, I don't know what the IA-Jet curriculum is, but I can't imagine there's much difference between those courses (especially since they're the same price), so if you're not ready for one, you're probably not ready for the other either.

I also can't imagine a Westwind type rating would be in much demand, should you and this company part ways, so you'll have paid for something nobody is going to want (potentially).

[MarkerInbound]

I don't know what Flight Safety's program is but the SIC type is a joke. 61.55 only requires a review of normal and non normal procedures, systems and performance. Three times around the pattern losing an engine on the third downwind and you've met the FAA requirements.

[James331]

NEVER pay for training.

Especially for a type rating as useless as this one.

Id tell them they can pay for it, otherwise look elsewhere for a job.

If they are playing this pay for your own type rating game, I can only imagine all the other fun surprises that probably await you down the road at this "company".

[joe grind]

paying for training

many companies require a type rating/other training before considered eligible, they don't care how you meet the requirement..

[clunckdriver]

My sugestion is RUN THE OTHER WAY! I presume by you title that you are not a "local", In North America one does not go around "buying" a job, {and by the way, Im one who hires pilots} As for this type rating, how many Westwinds are operated in North America on Comercial certificates? right, not many.

[con-pilot]

I agree with what clunckdriver posted and other posters that posted in kind.

Before I retired I was a chief pilot and while hiring someone with a type rating was desirable in the aircraft we operated, Sabre 65, Falcon 50/50EX, Falcon 900EX, I never mandated that anyone I hired must be type rated in our aircraft.

In fact two pilots I hired were not type rated in the Falcons, we sent them to school and we paid for the school.

I've never agreed with having any pilot paying for their own type rating to get a job with a company.

That includes Southwest Airlines.

So I would recommend keeping your present job and keep looking.

Oh, and yes, a type rating in a IAJet (Westwinds) is not the most desirable rating to have these days. Don’t get me wrong, I flew a Westwind II for three years and it does a good job, doesn’t hand fly worth a darn, but it does the job.

[ra4000]

2 years contract?
The 61.58 is required every year.
Forget the SIC type,still have to do the
Whole ground school like the PIC
And most of the manuvers.
They should pay double just for flying
The westwind.

[FromRome]

I agree with most of the above posts;
but here is how I think about the money that I'm thinking to invest on this TR.

I have just enough hours to meet the part. 135 vfr req.(500hrs)

I do not have a CFI so in order for me to get one I will have still to pay (eventually abou 10,000$ if I'm looking to go through CFI CFII MEI),
with a few thousand dollar more I will get jets hour, part 135 experience and do what I love to do... Flying.
I'm current a server, I'm being look for a job for about 8 months and saving money. I Got an offer from Great Lakes that I couldn't accept due to the ridiculous low pay.
This will be an investment that can help me reach the ATP requirements and eventually go in a regional and start my Airline career.

I appreciate all of you tips and suggestion. I am an open mind person and I'm trying to think about my situation with different views.
Sorry for the misspelling of the a/c my keyboard is on Italian language setting, it didn't like the word "Westwind"

[clunckdriver]

Food for thought, there are still some in the game, owners, managers and such like who have enjoyed the fruits of this industry and climbed the ranks from the very bottom, most of us deplore what is going on with the hiring practises and P2F scams, I for one will NEVER hire a pilot who has been involved in such methods to gain a position. Now, Im sure that those of us who wish to keep things this way are are in the minority as the "bean counters" dominate our society and the "wage gap" widens, however there are some of us who are still breathing and treating employees the way we were treated by some great managers and owners. Do what you will, but please dont be suprised when some of us will "Blackball" you and others who seem to be in an endless "race to the bottom".Good luck to you.

[banjodrone]

P2T is the norm now in Europe, while P2F is on the rise and they're both spreading. While I would never go down that road myself I honestly wouldn't judge anyone who does it as for most it's the only game in town, bar a few schemes which meet a candidate half way on the cost. If I had the money, I'd like to think I'd use it to build hours, get a taildragger rating etc...

[clunckdriver]

Yes, I am painfully awre that P2f/P2T is the new norm in the EU, but if they didnt have the flight training units involved in these scams it simply would go away, there were good reasons our ancestors formed Guilds and controlled the entry standards, pilots, and future pilots neet to organise themselves or face a declining life style and standards, over here, with the exception of the odd "Pro Bona" case lawyers worked this out a long time ago, yes many article in lousy conditions, but there is a light at the end of their tunnel!

[Amadis of Gaul]

Originally Posted by FromRome

I agree with most of the above posts;
but here is how I think about the money that I'm thinking to invest on this TR.

I have just enough hours to meet the part. 135 vfr req.(500hrs)

I do not have a CFI so in order for me to get one I will have still to pay (eventually abou 10,000$ if I'm looking to go through CFI CFII MEI),
with a few thousand dollar more I will get jets hour, part 135 experience and do what I love to do... Flying.
I'm current a server, I'm being look for a job for about 8 months and saving money. I Got an offer from Great Lakes that I couldn't accept due to the ridiculous low pay.
This will be an investment that can help me reach the ATP requirements and eventually go in a regional and start my Airline career.

I appreciate all of you tips and suggestion. I am an open mind person and I'm trying to think about my situation with different views.
Sorry for the misspelling of the a/c my keyboard is on Italian language setting, it didn't like the word "Westwind"

I feel your pain, believe you me. We were all once in the same situation when we were desperate for jet time...

One question I have is how is it that you can't accept Great Lakes' admittedly horrendous pay, but somehow have the funds for a type rating? In my opinion, you'd be better off going to Great Lakes, and using the type rating money for living expenses. One thing is for sure: the kind of skills you'll acquire flying at Great Lakes you won't find anywhere else. In fact, I'd wager to say you'll never be as good a pilot as you will be at Great Lakes.

While I don't necessarily agree that you risk being "blackballed" by going this Westwind route, I do think you have more options than you realize.