Pilot shortage in the US?
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In july 2001, I looked out the window of my apartment at stone brook apartments in Sanford, florida to see a group of 3 instructors from Comair academy try to figure out how to change a tire on a dodge neon.
I had moved to that apartment complex because I was accepted to Comair for the next term hoping help with course work was just a few apartments away.
After 20 minutes during which all 3 made an attempt to jack the car (and damaging it), I walked out and performed the task in 4 minutes.
A couple of months after 9/11, a few instructors were driving around with domino's pizza lights on the top of their cars.
When we use the term "pilots", I believe there should be a little more detail used along with the word to describe level of mechanical aptitude/training or level of training in facets such as aerobatic flying or at least amount of "unusual attitudes" training.
I feel there is a little too much specialization in the trajectory of a prospective pilot's training arc and that there should be some courses required that help the students acquire skills that they can draw on when faced with an unusual situation such as linking symptoms to the underlying issue in both flying the plane and understanding the systems.
I had moved to that apartment complex because I was accepted to Comair for the next term hoping help with course work was just a few apartments away.
After 20 minutes during which all 3 made an attempt to jack the car (and damaging it), I walked out and performed the task in 4 minutes.
A couple of months after 9/11, a few instructors were driving around with domino's pizza lights on the top of their cars.
When we use the term "pilots", I believe there should be a little more detail used along with the word to describe level of mechanical aptitude/training or level of training in facets such as aerobatic flying or at least amount of "unusual attitudes" training.
I feel there is a little too much specialization in the trajectory of a prospective pilot's training arc and that there should be some courses required that help the students acquire skills that they can draw on when faced with an unusual situation such as linking symptoms to the underlying issue in both flying the plane and understanding the systems.
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I feel there is a little too much specialization in the trajectory of a prospective pilot's training arc and that there should be some courses required that help the students acquire skills that they can draw on when faced with an unusual situation such as linking symptoms to the underlying issue in both flying the plane and understanding the systems.
I personally have no problem with low time pilots in the cockpit if they've been properly trained and qualified but they should be hand selected based on their aptitude and ability rather than their finances. The only way you will get top quality students interested in aviation is to make aviation the prestigious profession it once was.
I believe the airlines are not the problem so much as ourselves and our own sense of entitlement. Why do we feel a pilot should learn to fly as a captain on a 50-100 seat regional jet before they're qualified to be a co pilot on a 130-160 seat jet that is no more sophisticated or difficult to fly? The responsibility is just as great.
The seniority system we worship has created the regional jet dilemma in the first place.
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Only Money?
You know, it is very true that people without the financing will never become pilots in the US. It is not fair to assume that little is required beyond money. Pilots still have to pass check rides according to well defined PTS. I have met a few examiners who operated outside of the college flight program environments that were "easy to pass", but those were rare. Most check rides were to PTS and performed to professional standards.
The money part that is referred to in the US concerns mainly that without funds, prospective pilots will never get there. It may also imply that people who would have otherwise made excellent pilots will never get a chance since the financial aspect may seem a barrier to some.
This is all assumption and does not really prove that financing is the only way to become a pilot. The last time I checked, there was still plenty of competition here in the US for those lowly paid 20K yearly jobs. Still plenty of 4 year college degree applicants.
Yes, money is a barrier, but that certainly does not mean that any person with the financing can become a pilot. There are still standards.
The money part that is referred to in the US concerns mainly that without funds, prospective pilots will never get there. It may also imply that people who would have otherwise made excellent pilots will never get a chance since the financial aspect may seem a barrier to some.
This is all assumption and does not really prove that financing is the only way to become a pilot. The last time I checked, there was still plenty of competition here in the US for those lowly paid 20K yearly jobs. Still plenty of 4 year college degree applicants.
Yes, money is a barrier, but that certainly does not mean that any person with the financing can become a pilot. There are still standards.
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I'm sorry but the standards are not that difficult. I'm not saying an idiot can do it or that you don't need basic aptitude but the PTS is a minimum standard and being able to meet the PTS doesn't mean you are skilled, it only means you've managed to meet the minimum standard. There is no grading system, only pass or fail, there is nothing in between. You've either met the minimum standard or you haven't. If you haven't met the minimum standard you can keep trying until you do.
Passing your basic flight training even through ATP is not that difficult compared to the challenges that only experience can help you overcome. Pretty much anyone can pass the FAA written exams, they're a joke. In fact there's no excuse for getting more than a couple wrong answers. Why do so many american pilots fail the foreign written exams or barely pass? Other countries don't have a freedom of information act and the tests are kept secret and change frequently.
Some low time pilots excel and are genuinely skilled and talented, others just scrape by. There is no way to tell except to fly and work with them. If we had a more thorough and objective evaluation system it would be easier to weed out those who are weak and keep them from flying in the left seat of a regional jet or large turboprop before they're ready. All we have now is knee jerk reactions to accidents such as the 1500 hour rule and the pilot records improvement act that usually tells you nothing.
Bad pilots cost the airlines money. It's just that the non pilot bean counters who run the airlines can't really see how. If the airlines hand selected high quality college graduates based on their grades, leadership skills, and determination they could easily evaluate the potential for flight skills and then invest in their training with a long term commitment in return. I think we are heading in this direction but again... The things that are holding us back is this perceived separation of regional and mainline flying and seniority systems.
Passing your basic flight training even through ATP is not that difficult compared to the challenges that only experience can help you overcome. Pretty much anyone can pass the FAA written exams, they're a joke. In fact there's no excuse for getting more than a couple wrong answers. Why do so many american pilots fail the foreign written exams or barely pass? Other countries don't have a freedom of information act and the tests are kept secret and change frequently.
Some low time pilots excel and are genuinely skilled and talented, others just scrape by. There is no way to tell except to fly and work with them. If we had a more thorough and objective evaluation system it would be easier to weed out those who are weak and keep them from flying in the left seat of a regional jet or large turboprop before they're ready. All we have now is knee jerk reactions to accidents such as the 1500 hour rule and the pilot records improvement act that usually tells you nothing.
Bad pilots cost the airlines money. It's just that the non pilot bean counters who run the airlines can't really see how. If the airlines hand selected high quality college graduates based on their grades, leadership skills, and determination they could easily evaluate the potential for flight skills and then invest in their training with a long term commitment in return. I think we are heading in this direction but again... The things that are holding us back is this perceived separation of regional and mainline flying and seniority systems.
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lifeafteraviation,
I can't disagree with all that you are claiming here. I don't see what college grades has to do with anything. I had a lousy 2.8 GPA for my BA,and carried a 4.0 for nearly all of my Masters. How is prior performance allways a perfect determination of future performance?
I do agree that there is an apparent issue of regional standards being substantially lower than that of majors. I say apparent in that I am unable to speak directly from experience. Wouldn't this disparity between majors and regionals be largely due to training issues at the regional level. I can't count the number of pilots who claimed to have been rushed through the training at the regional level. How many do I know for sure that paid ATP or Pan Am academy to run them through the first time? Many many of them.
I do not agree at all that experience alone is what makes a better pilot. When we talk of pilots transitioning from general aviation (C150)to their first FAR 121 job(Glass, SOP etc), then it goes a bit beyond the simple amount of hours in their books. They will almost certainly require additional training on the complexity of the environment they will be entering. That is where I believe the future will almost certainly have to lie, in enhanced training at the regional level.
It is very common, and rarely discussed, that a 1600 hour fully qualified CFI has extreme difficulty passing his first FAR 121 PC. Many of these so called 250 hour wonders breeze right through it by paying ATP or Pan Am. I know a fair share that also get practice on Flight Sim. That seems to help them with the transition from C150 to CRJ.
Oh Yes, don't let me forget! Experience is everything when it comes to piloting. Lets just not forget the training issue, which is likely the issue at hart to begin with.
I can't disagree with all that you are claiming here. I don't see what college grades has to do with anything. I had a lousy 2.8 GPA for my BA,and carried a 4.0 for nearly all of my Masters. How is prior performance allways a perfect determination of future performance?
I do agree that there is an apparent issue of regional standards being substantially lower than that of majors. I say apparent in that I am unable to speak directly from experience. Wouldn't this disparity between majors and regionals be largely due to training issues at the regional level. I can't count the number of pilots who claimed to have been rushed through the training at the regional level. How many do I know for sure that paid ATP or Pan Am academy to run them through the first time? Many many of them.
I do not agree at all that experience alone is what makes a better pilot. When we talk of pilots transitioning from general aviation (C150)to their first FAR 121 job(Glass, SOP etc), then it goes a bit beyond the simple amount of hours in their books. They will almost certainly require additional training on the complexity of the environment they will be entering. That is where I believe the future will almost certainly have to lie, in enhanced training at the regional level.
It is very common, and rarely discussed, that a 1600 hour fully qualified CFI has extreme difficulty passing his first FAR 121 PC. Many of these so called 250 hour wonders breeze right through it by paying ATP or Pan Am. I know a fair share that also get practice on Flight Sim. That seems to help them with the transition from C150 to CRJ.
Oh Yes, don't let me forget! Experience is everything when it comes to piloting. Lets just not forget the training issue, which is likely the issue at hart to begin with.
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I didn't say that experience alone is what makes a good pilot but it is still essential. You don't want two pilots with no experience flying an airliner no matter how well they did in flight school.
I also agree with you that college grades aren't the best metric but it's a start and it allows airlines to select potential achievers. And yes, I've been a slacker in my life at times too but you learn to pick yourself up and get serious if you want to achieve.
I also agree with you that college grades aren't the best metric but it's a start and it allows airlines to select potential achievers. And yes, I've been a slacker in my life at times too but you learn to pick yourself up and get serious if you want to achieve.
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Getting Along
lifeafteraviation,
I think we are getting along here. I like the way you say grades are not the only metric.
I had average grades during by BA due to working full time in the airlines, and also because I made the decision to use the studies to expand horizons in areas and not focus so much on grades. I learned a great deal in my BA studies,and honestly did not learn more during my Masters studies where I ran almost full A averages almost to completion. Both were valuable lessons, but I must admit that the attention to detail and commitment to the class agenda would be more applicable towards future pilot performance than the case in expanding horizons. So, I can say I don't disagree with you entirely either. I just don't like being judged on my average points by a company that really has no idea either way. Average grades one time and excellent the other. None of their business either way as far as I am concerned.
If I had it my way, I would give credit towards any degree achieved,and not take credit away. I would ask applicants to explain their performance, both good and bad, and ask them to clearly explain what they learned from their experience in achieving their degrees. The ability to express their success and failures as achievement shows maturity.
So, no disagreement on my part either. Just some thoughts on what I prefer achievement to be reckonized as. Based on the indivudual.
Anyway,thanks for your input. You made your point.
I think we are getting along here. I like the way you say grades are not the only metric.
I had average grades during by BA due to working full time in the airlines, and also because I made the decision to use the studies to expand horizons in areas and not focus so much on grades. I learned a great deal in my BA studies,and honestly did not learn more during my Masters studies where I ran almost full A averages almost to completion. Both were valuable lessons, but I must admit that the attention to detail and commitment to the class agenda would be more applicable towards future pilot performance than the case in expanding horizons. So, I can say I don't disagree with you entirely either. I just don't like being judged on my average points by a company that really has no idea either way. Average grades one time and excellent the other. None of their business either way as far as I am concerned.
If I had it my way, I would give credit towards any degree achieved,and not take credit away. I would ask applicants to explain their performance, both good and bad, and ask them to clearly explain what they learned from their experience in achieving their degrees. The ability to express their success and failures as achievement shows maturity.
So, no disagreement on my part either. Just some thoughts on what I prefer achievement to be reckonized as. Based on the indivudual.
Anyway,thanks for your input. You made your point.
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I don't see what college grades have to do with anything.
I graduated high school, washed dishes for two years and then got a well paid but awful job, saved money for flying lessons and worked my way up through towing gliders, flight instruction, air taxis, bush flying, corporate and finally airline flying, and after twenty seven years in the business am a reasonably competent captain of a 70 tonne airliner.
Despite never going to college I passed all the written examinations for my FAA ATP certificate and my UK ATPL first time, and have never failed a proficiency check at any level from private upwards. In order to operate an airliner you need to know the three and five times tables, be able to add a column of figures and carry one over when you get to sixty, and operate a simple calculator. And you need to know how to fly. But you don't need a college degree.
I graduated high school, washed dishes for two years and then got a well paid but awful job, saved money for flying lessons and worked my way up through towing gliders, flight instruction, air taxis, bush flying, corporate and finally airline flying, and after twenty seven years in the business am a reasonably competent captain of a 70 tonne airliner.
Despite never going to college I passed all the written examinations for my FAA ATP certificate and my UK ATPL first time, and have never failed a proficiency check at any level from private upwards. In order to operate an airliner you need to know the three and five times tables, be able to add a column of figures and carry one over when you get to sixty, and operate a simple calculator. And you need to know how to fly. But you don't need a college degree.
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oh for the "old days"
learnt to fly at Burnside-Ott in florida in 1966, and did last flight on a A320, from port-blair to Chennai in 2010,(age 65) during those years (44) never once did I not love every minute I was in the air. but there were lots of ups and downs,---now when I read threads like this I feel to weep, what is the matter with u young people, do you think that you should not have to fight for a career in a field that you should love. stop moaning and sobbing and instead, plot and plan, it will not always be easy but if you really love flying u can do it.
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Valid points some of you guys out there.
Firstly, many expats have tried getting into Canada with no success. My friend got a job there as a truck driver and for now gave up flying as his application as a pilot was denied.
Yes there is a pilot shortage, because people are not willing to work for peanuts, and collect food stamps as professionals. The Regionals need to wake up and pay market related salaries. Skywest offered my wife $22/hr before taxes as FO on the CRJ. They took too long to get off their asses and provide a start date. Of course she wanted the experience, but after doing the math, we couldnt survive on that crap salary. And I'm not using my savings to subsidize a crap salary from a successful airline because the f... beancounters call the shots.
We are both 4000 hour plus pilots with ATP's flying turboprops in Africa and pay scales are better here. Life in Africa is tough as well.
Would love to live in the USA with my wife, but the airlines need to step up to the plate. A 1500 ATP FO for P121 and 135 at less than 25K per year, what an insult!
Corporate pays better, if you can can get it, and you know the right person.
Firstly, many expats have tried getting into Canada with no success. My friend got a job there as a truck driver and for now gave up flying as his application as a pilot was denied.
Yes there is a pilot shortage, because people are not willing to work for peanuts, and collect food stamps as professionals. The Regionals need to wake up and pay market related salaries. Skywest offered my wife $22/hr before taxes as FO on the CRJ. They took too long to get off their asses and provide a start date. Of course she wanted the experience, but after doing the math, we couldnt survive on that crap salary. And I'm not using my savings to subsidize a crap salary from a successful airline because the f... beancounters call the shots.
We are both 4000 hour plus pilots with ATP's flying turboprops in Africa and pay scales are better here. Life in Africa is tough as well.
Would love to live in the USA with my wife, but the airlines need to step up to the plate. A 1500 ATP FO for P121 and 135 at less than 25K per year, what an insult!
Corporate pays better, if you can can get it, and you know the right person.
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"since you can't sue someone" There was a boy named "Sue", once upon a time.
Life after needs to get a life!
A wee bit full of himself me thinks!
Happy Holidays to all.
Life after needs to get a life!
A wee bit full of himself me thinks!
Happy Holidays to all.
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I'm not sure what some of you guys are talking about...
My point here is that I believe the old school seniority system we consider so sacred is what is damaging this career the most when placed into today's environment. It is the very thing that allows regional airlines to hire low time pilots at low wages and promote them to captain after a year while experienced pilots sit on the sidelines not because they are being discriminated against but because the economics don't allow them to take those available jobs (insert quote here for those who want to point out the obvious fact that experience doesn't always equal skill).
As I've said before, airline piloting is the only professional position I can think of that forces a system of mediocrity with no incentive to excel beyond your peers. We complain and whine but we are our own worst enemy. Most airline pilots in the USA can't even imagine how a true open job market would work for them, unless they've flown corporate or overseas (insert angry quote here for all those who secretly know they are mediocre and depend on the seniority system to hold their jobs and advance to captain).
A college degree is just a piece of paper that proves you have the ability and incentive to achieve. It's not a measure of intelligence or of stick and rudder skills. I am in no way trying to insult those who have achieved a great deal without a degree but clearly those people should understand more than others the additional obstacles they have faced without being able to present that paper during the interview. By simply arguing that no pilot needs one is rationalization (lets see how many pilots post their resume here again).
By the same token I will argue that a seniority number is just a piece of paper also and only proves you have stuck around, maybe got hired at an opportune time and have at least passed the minimum standards. It's no more a measure of intelligence or of professional ability than a degree you earned years ago.
If we abandoned this entitlement based career structure and competed for the best jobs on a level playing field the pilot shortage would not be a problem for the airlines and the pay and benefits of being a pilot would increase dramatically. Training costs would be reduced as we stopped pairing high time co pilots with captains half their age and experience simply because of the circumstances of a highly fluent job market.
I will point out (before someone pull quotes my comments in later posts) the obvious origins and necessity of unions and job protection to protect pilots from negative career backlash when they stand their professional ground. Keep in mind pilots aren't the only professionals who must often stand up to conflicting corporate and financial pressure in the interest of safety. There are other ways to protect your career and the world is a different place than it was when this all started.
This thread topic is about the "pilot shortage" and I believe we will see some changes coming as a result of the world wide pilot job market that's opening up. Those changes will be good for some and bad for others.
I consider this an important and obviously controversial topic and welcome a heated discussion but please refrain from the personal insults and posting your resumes....or pointing out my typos.
My point here is that I believe the old school seniority system we consider so sacred is what is damaging this career the most when placed into today's environment. It is the very thing that allows regional airlines to hire low time pilots at low wages and promote them to captain after a year while experienced pilots sit on the sidelines not because they are being discriminated against but because the economics don't allow them to take those available jobs (insert quote here for those who want to point out the obvious fact that experience doesn't always equal skill).
As I've said before, airline piloting is the only professional position I can think of that forces a system of mediocrity with no incentive to excel beyond your peers. We complain and whine but we are our own worst enemy. Most airline pilots in the USA can't even imagine how a true open job market would work for them, unless they've flown corporate or overseas (insert angry quote here for all those who secretly know they are mediocre and depend on the seniority system to hold their jobs and advance to captain).
A college degree is just a piece of paper that proves you have the ability and incentive to achieve. It's not a measure of intelligence or of stick and rudder skills. I am in no way trying to insult those who have achieved a great deal without a degree but clearly those people should understand more than others the additional obstacles they have faced without being able to present that paper during the interview. By simply arguing that no pilot needs one is rationalization (lets see how many pilots post their resume here again).
By the same token I will argue that a seniority number is just a piece of paper also and only proves you have stuck around, maybe got hired at an opportune time and have at least passed the minimum standards. It's no more a measure of intelligence or of professional ability than a degree you earned years ago.
If we abandoned this entitlement based career structure and competed for the best jobs on a level playing field the pilot shortage would not be a problem for the airlines and the pay and benefits of being a pilot would increase dramatically. Training costs would be reduced as we stopped pairing high time co pilots with captains half their age and experience simply because of the circumstances of a highly fluent job market.
I will point out (before someone pull quotes my comments in later posts) the obvious origins and necessity of unions and job protection to protect pilots from negative career backlash when they stand their professional ground. Keep in mind pilots aren't the only professionals who must often stand up to conflicting corporate and financial pressure in the interest of safety. There are other ways to protect your career and the world is a different place than it was when this all started.
This thread topic is about the "pilot shortage" and I believe we will see some changes coming as a result of the world wide pilot job market that's opening up. Those changes will be good for some and bad for others.
I consider this an important and obviously controversial topic and welcome a heated discussion but please refrain from the personal insults and posting your resumes....or pointing out my typos.
Last edited by lifeafteraviation; 14th Dec 2013 at 23:23. Reason: mentioning your experience to make a point is not always posturing...
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Originally Posted by lifeafteraviation
By the same token I will argue that a seniority number is just a piece of paper also and only proves you have stuck around, maybe got hired at an opportune time and have at least passed the minimum standards. It's no more a measure of intelligence or of professional ability than a degree you earned years ago.
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Lifeafteaviation; For what it's worth, I agree with a lot of your overall views on the seniority system, but for someone who wishes to avoid insults, you sure do rely heavily on condescending and antagonistic comments.
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Is anyone denying that?
@ A Squared....this is an anonymous forum...it's the perfect place to belt out how you feel on subjects and issues that we probably wouldn't say to a lot of people's faces. It doesn't mean we can't turn those into profound conversation with a bit of mud thrown back and forth.
I know I'm not the only one who gets pissed off at the BS we deal with in this business...just get a few pilots together drinking and you know what I'm talking about.
The problem is everybody has a slightly different perspective on what causes the BS.
It's going to take some pretty radical ideas spoken out load to shake things up enough to create change.
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i think many professions allow their jobs to go to their heads.
not just pilots.
there will always be a shortage of GOOD PILOTS, average pilots, many of those around.
seniority...if it were true, unadulterated seniority, it would be ok. but adulteration happens in mergers when someone with 7 years is placed above someone with 20 years.
if you are good enough when hired, the assumption will be that in 20 years you will have experience to go with a minimum skill level.
the other way, allowing someone to say: JOE IS A BETTER PILOT THAN SAM, so we make JOE the captain.
alas, the words were spoken by Joe's brother.
brown nosing would be so rampant as to be part of the uniform.
lawyers, technosavants (is that a word?) seem to let things go to their heads.
not just pilots.
there will always be a shortage of GOOD PILOTS, average pilots, many of those around.
seniority...if it were true, unadulterated seniority, it would be ok. but adulteration happens in mergers when someone with 7 years is placed above someone with 20 years.
if you are good enough when hired, the assumption will be that in 20 years you will have experience to go with a minimum skill level.
the other way, allowing someone to say: JOE IS A BETTER PILOT THAN SAM, so we make JOE the captain.
alas, the words were spoken by Joe's brother.
brown nosing would be so rampant as to be part of the uniform.
lawyers, technosavants (is that a word?) seem to let things go to their heads.
Flarepilot
The problem with the seniority system is that, over the past 30 years, it has been a powerful lever to ratchet pilot wages down. If you can't leave ( have to wait for another airline to hire and start at a 70% cut), management can get a contract that pays far less. Overall compensation packages at the airlines are 50-70%, after inflation, than 30 years ago while pilot salaries are up significantly in the US. Mikitary and corporate pilots are earning competitive salaries now, where the airlines used to pay 3-5 times more.
GF
The problem with the seniority system is that, over the past 30 years, it has been a powerful lever to ratchet pilot wages down. If you can't leave ( have to wait for another airline to hire and start at a 70% cut), management can get a contract that pays far less. Overall compensation packages at the airlines are 50-70%, after inflation, than 30 years ago while pilot salaries are up significantly in the US. Mikitary and corporate pilots are earning competitive salaries now, where the airlines used to pay 3-5 times more.
GF
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The problem with the seniority system is that, over the past 30 years, it has been a powerful lever to ratchet pilot wages down. If you can't leave ( have to wait for another airline to hire and start at a 70% cut), management can get a contract that pays far less.
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What are these other ways to protect from favoritism, brown nosing, back stabbing, nepotism, etc because in the history of the world it hasn't been accomplished.
From my experience the only people who want merit based system are people who excel at brown nosing, back stabbing and general douchebaggery.
I have extensive experience in both systems and I'll take seniority system over merit any day. It has many negatives but it also akin to SOP's for flight operations. You know what to expect and the rules and procedures are known so you can plan your life. With every merit system I've been a part of or experienced through others there isn't any stability or predictability unless you fit into douchebaggery or love to give reacharounds description.
From my experience the only people who want merit based system are people who excel at brown nosing, back stabbing and general douchebaggery.
I have extensive experience in both systems and I'll take seniority system over merit any day. It has many negatives but it also akin to SOP's for flight operations. You know what to expect and the rules and procedures are known so you can plan your life. With every merit system I've been a part of or experienced through others there isn't any stability or predictability unless you fit into douchebaggery or love to give reacharounds description.