US Airways

[Gillegan]

A320PLT said:

Well to that I only offer this. Your east buddies are the ones who chose this path! I see Tim has resorted to keep his mouth shut on this issue and rightly so. The thought of begging to go to arbitration getting that then not honoring their end of the deal! ALL this garbage about "we have all this seniority" no they didn't what they had was longevity but no seniority which is why a guy with 18yr in at old usair was at the very bottom of the list and why folks with 17yrs were furloughed!!!

Unprofessional? Yup that's right we are just giving back what we received from them, total disrespect!!!

Look, there's differences of opinion and there's putting peoples lives at risk! Any pilot who calls themselves professional who is willing to stand by and watch hundreds of peoples lives put at risk and not try to stop it if they could just because they are involved in a dispute with other pilots does not deserve to wear the wings on their uniform. If a USAirways east pilot did that, then I would say the exact same thing. If the incident happened as you describe, then it is pathetic of the crew and it is pathetic that you defend it. Disagree about the facts of our discussion - you made some valid points but I can't say in strong enough terms just how wrong your attitude is about the passengers you and others fly. How would those guys have felt if they sat there and watched snickering while the other aircraft taxied onto the runway and was creamed by another aircraft taking off? How would you have felt? Glad? Elated? Felt like those scum got theirs? How about those innocent people in the back? If you really think that behavior like this is justified - by anything - then you really should do the rest of our profession a favor and find another job.

[A320PLT]

Gilligan,

The pax were never at risk. The plane taxied into the grass! The only risk was to the brusied ego's of those "NON ROOKIES" You friends get into the press and make bold statements like "America west pilots are rookies" yet none of these rookies taxied into the grass. "America west pilot have far less experience than our seasoned pilots" Yet none of our pilots shot and killed an unarmed A320 at 10,000ft!!

Unprofessional? again your east friends wrote the book on unprofessional!!!

[southflyer]

Quick, quick, someone pass 320 a pacifier...

[A320PLT]

Southflyer,

You got a cherry flavored one???

[Gillegan]

The pax were never at risk. The plane taxied into the grass! The only risk was to the brusied ego's of those "NON ROOKIES" You friends get into the press and make bold statements like "America west pilots are rookies" yet none of these rookies taxied into the grass. "America west pilot have far less experience than our seasoned pilots" Yet none of our pilots shot and killed an unarmed A320 at 10,000ft!!

I'm glad that you clarified that and thanks for keeping this somewhat civil. I've never said that the USAirways East pilots were blameless in all this. Statements like that in the press are juvenile to say the least. My point all along has been that this is a mess and it didn't have to happen. If the east pilots held to DOH at the expense of all else during negotiations (on that there seems to be some dispute) then they were being unrealistic. A junior co-pilot at one carrier should not displace a captain at another. To me, the big injustice was stapling all of the pilots who had been furloughed on the day of integration below the most junior FO at AWA as they were mostly back on the property by the actual arbitration. I've never contended that they should have received their DOH, only that they should have been included in the relative slotting formula. Now, if that stapling was required by the guidelines under which the arbitrator had to rule (I don't know if that is the case or not) I would argue that as a flaw in the ALPA merger policy and I would take the USAirways East negotiators to task for not seeing the inevitability of it and avoiding an arbitration at all costs. If that is the case, they would have known the stapling was coming and were willing to sacrifice those junior FO's for the senior. This willingness to sacrifice the junior for the senior has been a problem at AAA for years and is one reason why the de-certification does not surprise me at all.

I also think that the east should have been willing to compromise on the top 500+ slots going to east pilots as a quid-pro-quo to fix the stapling. I am unaware whether any meaningful offers were ever made after the award. What I do see is that both sides are so angry at this point, I doubt that the situation can improve at all.

I am also not convinced that the USAirways pilots (east or west) will be better off with USAPA but I was appalled at ALPA's campaign during the election. The only argument that I saw was that an independent union would be unable to provide the level of support and infrastructure that ALPA would. I saw no acknowledgement of past mistakes or of the great cost of that infrastructure. Before I left USAir, I was active in the union and saw first hand the dysfunction of the MEC and exorbitant pay and lifestyles of the "ALPA Elite".

In short, I saw a possibility for compromise that neither side was willing to consider (pre and post award) with the result that this whole thing stands a very real chance of imploding which is something that will be good for no one. I have seen very little real leadership in this whole mess. To my thinking, the national leadership (sic) should have seen the potential for all this and pulled out all the stops to forge a compromise. Prater should have been at every local meeting on both sides. This has been a huge blow to ALPA and a huge blow to our profession and no one involved is blameless.

[Gillegan]

Yet none of our pilots shot and killed an unarmed A320 at 10,000ft!!

You've got me there. Your statement cracks me up.

[TangoUniform]

Help me out here Gillegan, didn't Piedmonster staple the Empire guys to the bottom in the '80s. Memory fails me on this, was it Piedmont or UsAir and was it Empire? I just remember a complete staple in the 80s. Karma?

[typhoonpilot]

Piedmont, as you well know , did staple the Empire guys to the bottom of their list. They did it with one caveat though. That caveat was that they maintained their Empire date-of-hire seniority for bidding as long as they stayed on the Fokker 28.

I am sure that the vast majority of USAirways (East) pilots would very willingly accept that they are stapled to the bottom of AWA as long as they maintain their date-of-hire on former USAirways (East) equipment and bases. That would be a far better position than many find themselves in now.

In effect, that is known as a "fence". Fences were the only answer to a fair integration of AWA and USAirways as the disparity between the date-of-hire and attrition rates was too great.

The revisionist history that USAirways (West) pilots are already putting on the integration process is incredible. They repeatedly state that date-of-hire was the East's position. This is not true, it was "length of service". They consistently fail to mention that the East's proposal included a furlough, out of seniority for any returning East pilots for a period of one year after the integration. They repeatedly fail to mention that there were fences to protect the West pilots on their equipment in their bases until the year 2014. A time by which many thousands of East pilots would be gone by mandatory retirement (age 65 was not official when the proposal was made ).

All this revisionist history is occuring and leaving unnoticed that their own proposal was a massive long term seniority grab. Their relative position stance had no provisions in it to account for the vastly different attrition rates between the two carriers. Their argument that the top 500 spots going to East pilots being unfair is ludicrous. Those top 500 guys were all hired before America West even existed. They could all hold international captain positions on the A330, B767, or choice Caribbean flying out of PHL. That and they would all be gone by 2014.



Typhoonpilot

[A320PLT]

typhoon ...you are so out of whack with this

3200+ east pilots....V,s ..1700+ east pilots...you were always going to win this vote

this is about DOH by the east ...not length of service....at the PHX show,your own USAPA personal stated it is based on DOH....I was there!!!

This is not YOUR airline,this is the "combined " airline....this is the "New USAirways"....we were all hired on the same day......AWA is gone,so is the old USAirways....something you seem to have forgotten

What part about binding arbitration dont you understand.

What people need to know is that the East USAirways pilots agreed to Nicolau conducting the intergration....they understood,East pilots(obviously not) that it would be legal and binding....the west pilots also agreed...when it came out....you (the east pilots) spat the dummy,and reneged on the award

Integrity,is something USAPA does not have....how can anyone trust what you have to say,???.....the next agreement you get into,how can anyone be sure you will abide by it....based upon the latest .....your word is worthless.

I'm leaving this subject alone now as it's too hot. Typhoon has moved to greener pastrures and many others here are following suit. Massive bleeding from DAL, NWA, UAL and I expect that an LCC, UAL marriage is forth coming. I have had just about all f this as I can take.

Blood pressure thru the roof so this subject just ain't worth the bandwith it requires to post and read!!! I refused to go and listen to the mindless Bradford pontifacate about their plans. Oh did I say plans I ment lack of plans beyond attempting DOH which they will never see...

[southflyer]

Pacifiers available on all Kool-Aid flavors, just add water....

[85Speedbird]

this is about DOH by the east ...not length of service....at the PHX show,your own USAPA personal stated it is based on DOH....I was there!!!

If you were at the USAPA PHX roadshow pakeha-boy, then you must have also heard Bradford state something to the effect of optimally combining the lists in in a DOH + Fences + Protections methodolgy so that in the foreseeable future no former AWA pilots could be displaced by any US East pilots on their own turf and vice versa. Also, I'm sure Bradford mentioned equipment ordered after the date of the merger would be shared. However, the 'vulgar' sound of the word 'DOH' in your ears, and those of others, may very well have vapor locked your brain, thereby preventing you from processing this important information.

And PB, perhaps you can explain something I am in bewilderment about. Not once have I heard any east pilot state a desire to make a land grab or take away or fill west seats. Not one!! Not true the other way around. So who truly feels entitled? So just how do you feel the easties are "trying to ruin your careers" if USAPA's intent is to utilize fences and protections that protect west pilots!?

This is not YOUR airline,this is the "combined " airline....this is the "New USAirways"....we were all hired on the same day......AWA is gone,so is the old USAirways....something you seem to have forgotten

An interesting concept, sir. Perhaps we should all align ourselves by DOB like most new hire classes we've all been familiar with. Oh,..wait,... wouldn't that be close to the same results as a 'straight' DOH list.

Furthermore, as someone already pointed out, pilots from East nor West were officially consulted or needed for approval of this merger. So please kindly refrain from the fictitious claim that "the west pilots saved you".

The cold fact of the matter is that, regardless of how close US might have been to liquidation, it was merged/bought as a functioning business. Obviously its franchise was far more valuable intact rather than in pieces or else the latter would have occurred, agree? And had the US Airways franchise (or parts thereof) been purchased under a liquidation sale then I would heartily agree that the east would do well to be anywhere on a list. Such was not the case, thank God.

You have to accept the fact that a 'near miss' is technically not the same as a 'hit', PB. If you can understand this point then it might help lower your blood pressure. I know,... easy to say, hard to do, right?

What part about binding arbitration dont you understand.

Personally, I don't understand the part where Mr. Nicolau chose to ignore for list consideration the US-MDA (ERJ-170) pilots and the returning US pilots who were already on the property or had been recalled. If any one deserves to rant louder than you sir, perhaps it is they. I suppose they will have a chance to do so in court, yes?



Finally, regarding the most recent potential UAL-US merger, I know from past experience how unprofessional some UAL pilots can be when faced with a potential merger with US ( I narrowly avoided a ground collision with one who acknowledged ORD GC's instruction to "fall in behind US Air", and not 'liking' the phrase, decided to practically use TOGA to cut me off ).

But if you think they are going to welcome 5-10 yr longevity Capts into their 'big iron' flight decks on the basis of a relative position merger using the Nicolau list, then I have some land in New Orleans I'd like to sell you, my friend. Time will tell, but if the 'undesirable-to-both-sides' happens I would think DOH + Fences + Protections might even be more appealing to them also.

I never met a person from the land of 'down-under' (and vicinity) I didn't like. Look forward to the day we can split a pint, my friend.

85Speedbird

[Alconguin Crusader]

Let us not forget US Air would have been out of business if not for the federal government twice bailing out US Air. Twice the government let US Air not pay back the loan repayment. At the time there were numerous pilots furloughed and our governement let US Air stay in business. Now this is how Us Air pilots repay the industry? Get real Us Air and grow up.

[galaxy flyer]

Well, the ATSB guaranteed loans to AW to the tune of $429 million and USAir was guaranteed $900 million, according to the website. No word on repayment or "forgiveness" and, thus putting the taxpayer on the hook. Suffice to say, every airline, save AA, has been "bailed out" in one form or another. "Bail" is ATSB loans, Chap 11 filings that never end, foreign route awards that clearly favored one airline over another-think Pan Am getting NO route authority from new US cities. Nobody in the industry can claim to be glory as free market heroes. Oops, sorry, SWA.

GF

[Alconguin Crusader]

I forget the exact dates of the foregiveness but one date was around Jan of 2004 and the other was two or three months later. This should never should have happened. Bush claims to be a free marketeer and he lets bankrupt companies stay in business and ruin the other airlines in the process. When PAA and EAL go out of business there is no reason why US Air should have been allowed to stay in business. I am not advocating anything sinister but just to let the market play out naturally.
What does it say about the pension issue. How much did US Air put on the taxpayers for voting to give up their pension? $2 Billion, $3 Billion and did they ever pay back the US government. I think no is the answer. So they never paid back the money and then they dump untold amount of money on the taxpayers. What a deal for us!

[typhoonpilot]

.
What does it say about the pension issue. How much did US Air put on the taxpayers for voting to give up their pension? $2 Billion, $3 Billion and did they ever pay back the US government. I think no is the answer. So they never paid back the money and then they dump untold amount of money on the taxpayers. What a deal for us!

The quasi government PBGC took over the Pension Fund while the pension still had $1.7 Billion in it. This was at the absolute nadir of the stock market. Had the pension been left alone and just had normal company contributions it would most likely have returned to being fully funded. The PBGC has probably done pretty well with that $1.7 Billion and since they only have to pay out pennys on the dollar I'm guessing that the U.S. taxpayer has actually saved money because of the USAirways pension. You see, the PBGC also has other companies pensions that they are paying from, many nowhere near as well funded as the USAirways pension was. They could easily be using some of the $1.7 Billion plus to pay current obligations that they previously didn't have money for.

You might do a little more homework and ask ( or should I say ask, ask, and ask ) some questions before spouting off rubbish like you are here.


Typhoonpilot

[cerbus]

So Typhoon why did you vote to give it up and not just let it ride out the storm? You did a huge disservice to the industry and you know it. Stop trying to protect US AIr and own up to your actions.
I am sure even with the $1.7 B the PBCG got from you they will more than pay out over 40 plus years to the 5000 pilots even if it is only $3000 a month/pilot at a time.

[Gillegan]

So Typhoon why did you vote to give it up and not just let it ride out the storm? You did a huge disservice to the industry and you know it. Stop trying to protect US AIr and own up to your actions.
I am sure even with the $1.7 B the PBCG got from you they will more than pay out over 40 plus years to the 5000 pilots even if it is only $3000 a month/pilot at a time.

I guess that if you say it enough that might make it true. The USAirways pilots were not given the choice by their MEC on whether to give up their pension or not. The company came in one night, told them that without the pilots giving up the pension they would liquidate the company on the next day (file Chapter 7) and that they would not allow pilot ratification of the decision (which I believe the AAA MEC policy required). The (ALPA) MEC blinked and we are now where we are. Should the MEC have called Siegel's bluff? It's open to debate. I personally think that they should have but the calculation was that if the Chapter 7 threat was legitimate (and ALPA National's advisers thought that it was) that the USAirways pilots would be out of jobs and still have no pension. With termination of the pension, the jobs would be there with at least the hope of restoring some type of retirement.

Now, did the termination of the USAirways pilots pensions open the floodgates to similar actions at other carriers? Probably but don't fool yourself that others wouldn't have tried if they hadn't succeeded at USAirways. There is certainly responsibility there but I just don't see that it was the rank and file pilots at USAirways. My feeling is that it would have been defeated in a vote of the rank and file. If there is responsibility, it is on that (ALPA) MEC that blinked and the ALPA National economic advisers that counselled them to do so and on Duane Woerth who had the authority to refuse to sign the agreement.

Do I detect a trend here?

[330 Man]

Gillegan is 100% correct. Just to add to what he said, the MEC did not allow the pilots to vote on ANY of the concessionary votes during the 911 bankruptcy period. The first vote gave us a 43% pay cut, the next changed the reserve rules, I think but am not sure that there was one regarding medical insurance and finally the pension termination. We were not allowed to vote on any of these!

And then in pure ALPA bull***t, instead of taking his 43% paycut, our MEC chairman (name removed) was given a job by (name removed) to a non elected executive for ALPA with a raise over his original salary. The man has no guts but he does have HUGE balls!


cerbus, 3000 a month X 5000 pilots is 15 million a month X 12 months is 180 million a year. 1.7 billion at 5%interest compounded over 40 years is 11.97 billion. The 1.7 billion will run out in about year. Obviously there are not 5000pilots collecting now but the 1.7 will run out in about year 22. We are now in year 5. That means the taxpayer will start to foot the bill in 17 more years.

We did want to ride out the storm and the MEC knew this. That is why they did not put this out to a vote. I am the last person to "protect" usair. It was a crap company then and even more now. But you are making a huge mistake if you think the pilots were to blame. The blame lies with the MEC, the courts and the justice department of the Bush administration.

I am not sure what actions you think we should own up to. The fact that some of us are here means we quit there! Is that owning up enough for you? Some of us thought U was going out of business, and some thought they could not work any longer at such a currupt company. Adding the absolute corruption of ALPA and it is even worse. We voted with our feet.

330 man

[Rotorhead1026]

cerbus, 3000 a month X 5000 pilots

Only if you are lucky (and over - I think - age 50 at the time of pension liquidation). I was neither, so it's $1394.80 for - hopefully - a long time. I voted with my feet (and middle finger) as well, so I'm currently drawing the money, and have been for over two years.

The man has no guts but he does have HUGE balls!

Sorry - he has neither guts nor balls. He is, however, shameless enough to send me monthly letters asking for dues money I allegedly owe. I hope he holds his breath while waiting for the check.

[cerbus]

It sounds like this will all be a mute point by late this year. David Boyd of the Colorado consulant group says US Air will be bankrupt by early fall and out of the industry by Christmas. Read his report on his website but without the international routes and low morale there is not much hope for US Air.