ICAO to FAA ATP - TSA & Visa
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ICAO to FAA ATP - TSA & Visa
I know this is a much discussed item and I have used the search engine and trawled the net. However, I have a couple of queries that I hope someone who actually KNOWS might be able to help with.
Firstly, has anyone actually gone to the USA recently, as an alien, for the purposes of getting an FAA ATP by doing the written exam, the half dozen hours of brush up flying etc, and the check ride, WITHOUT TSA clearance? Why do I ask when a search of this website, a review of the AOPA site on the TSA, and the TSA AFSP site indicates that TSA clearance isn't required? Because Naples Air Center say they will get TSA clearance including fingerprinting on arrival, and AllATPs, on telephone enquiry, direct one to the TSA website to start getting clearance. Someone, somewhere is wrong, and it seems to be the flight schools...or is it?
Secondly, AllATPs told me on the telephone this evening that they get people from Europe and Overseas all the time to do the FAA ATP.... viz the written exam, brush up flying and check ride as advertised by them. However, they also advise they DO NOT issue I-20s and the visa is totally up to the student - 'they don't get involved in that'. This baffles me as, according to the US Visa Office, to obtain an M-1 visa you must obtain an I-20 from the 'institution'. I can't see any other way to legally get in to the USA to do the flying. Has anyone here gone to an AllATPs centre and managed to get an M-1 visa without any involvement by the school? Seems unlikely but I would interested to know.
To complete the picture, if anyone can recommend an AllATPs centre, with direct phone number - NOT their enquiry line (and a way of getting an M-1 visa with no help from AllATPs), I would really appreciate it. And if anyone else can make a genuine recommendation for somewhere else, where scheduling is not too tight at the moment, it would really help me a great deal.
Many thanks in anticipation of someone putting me straight.
Firstly, has anyone actually gone to the USA recently, as an alien, for the purposes of getting an FAA ATP by doing the written exam, the half dozen hours of brush up flying etc, and the check ride, WITHOUT TSA clearance? Why do I ask when a search of this website, a review of the AOPA site on the TSA, and the TSA AFSP site indicates that TSA clearance isn't required? Because Naples Air Center say they will get TSA clearance including fingerprinting on arrival, and AllATPs, on telephone enquiry, direct one to the TSA website to start getting clearance. Someone, somewhere is wrong, and it seems to be the flight schools...or is it?
Secondly, AllATPs told me on the telephone this evening that they get people from Europe and Overseas all the time to do the FAA ATP.... viz the written exam, brush up flying and check ride as advertised by them. However, they also advise they DO NOT issue I-20s and the visa is totally up to the student - 'they don't get involved in that'. This baffles me as, according to the US Visa Office, to obtain an M-1 visa you must obtain an I-20 from the 'institution'. I can't see any other way to legally get in to the USA to do the flying. Has anyone here gone to an AllATPs centre and managed to get an M-1 visa without any involvement by the school? Seems unlikely but I would interested to know.
To complete the picture, if anyone can recommend an AllATPs centre, with direct phone number - NOT their enquiry line (and a way of getting an M-1 visa with no help from AllATPs), I would really appreciate it. And if anyone else can make a genuine recommendation for somewhere else, where scheduling is not too tight at the moment, it would really help me a great deal.
Many thanks in anticipation of someone putting me straight.
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My understanding is that you do not need TSA clearance if you already hold an FAA commercial. You need the clearance if you are substantially increasing your skill level, such as with an instrument rating. An ATP is supposedly proof of skills that you already have.
Allatps do not issue you a visa. They are expecting you to read between the lines and go on a tourist waiver and just show up.
While some schools may give you the I-20, a consulate may not issue a visa for such a short term study program. It is one of those things that in any other industry you wouldn't need a visa due to the shortness of time needed, but because it is aviation everyone thinks you should have one. So technically you don't, as it (should) be less than 18 hours, but you could end up with all sorts of trouble from customs and immigration.
Good luck!
Allatps do not issue you a visa. They are expecting you to read between the lines and go on a tourist waiver and just show up.
While some schools may give you the I-20, a consulate may not issue a visa for such a short term study program. It is one of those things that in any other industry you wouldn't need a visa due to the shortness of time needed, but because it is aviation everyone thinks you should have one. So technically you don't, as it (should) be less than 18 hours, but you could end up with all sorts of trouble from customs and immigration.
Good luck!
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Thanks NZLeardriver. I should have mentioned that my ICAO licence is not FAA. Your understanding of the TSA position is the same as mine, regardless of whether the prior licence is FAA, but not, apparently, that of the two schools mentioned. That does lead me to question whether my fairly detailed research on the net has come up with the right answer.
I am not sure that AllATPs are expecting me to read between the lines..... Their website states that a requirement for their ATP 'course' is a valid, unexpired United States passport . Through a weblink they state: Non-U.S. Citizens must contact ATP to begin the TSA-required background check process prior to training. Please call ATP at 800-ALL-ATPS (800-255-2877) or +1 904-273-3018. Unfortunately, calling the second, international number, produced someone who was able to tell me that 'many' foreign students come to the USA to do the ATP 'course' but was only able to direct me to the TSA website. On pressing, and the 'scheduler' going to check, it was 'suggested' that AllATPs only do category 1 and 3 training, ie a TAS check IS required. He had very, very limited knowledge on the whole thing. I believe I knew more than he did. As AllATPs state that, on that number, All schedulers are qualified CFI/II/MEIs, I am surprised ... I thought the TSA requires security training?
As far as AllATPs is concerned, then, their 'ATP' course is flight training. I find it surprising that they then expect people to visit them on a visa waiver. The potential problems make it a complete non starter. As far as I am aware the ONLY way to get an M-1 visa is to get an I-20 from the school. As AllATPs don't issue these, perhaps there ARE people who go through the whole TSA process and then pitch up at immigration saying they are there on holiday!
There must a Ppruner out there who has gone out to do their ATP written, light twin refamiliarisation and ATP check ride with AllATPs, or anyone else for that matter, who has been through this, been as confused as me, and now knows the ins and outs. And I am guessing that different people have done it in different ways. Actual experiences, preferable recent, particularly since the TSA clarified the meaning of 'flight training' earlier this year, would be very welcome.
Help! And thanks!
PS I have to say I really not interested in trying to go in on a visa waiver UNLESS I can get something DEFINITIVE on it being a valid route .... the results of failing at immigration or, worse, later on in the USA, are too grizzly from a career point of view to contemplate. Add to that, the several stamps in Arabic in my passport from countries the USA is none too friendly with, coupled with the words 'aircrew' on several visas, is likely to get the mildest immigration official going...
I am not sure that AllATPs are expecting me to read between the lines..... Their website states that a requirement for their ATP 'course' is a valid, unexpired United States passport . Through a weblink they state: Non-U.S. Citizens must contact ATP to begin the TSA-required background check process prior to training. Please call ATP at 800-ALL-ATPS (800-255-2877) or +1 904-273-3018. Unfortunately, calling the second, international number, produced someone who was able to tell me that 'many' foreign students come to the USA to do the ATP 'course' but was only able to direct me to the TSA website. On pressing, and the 'scheduler' going to check, it was 'suggested' that AllATPs only do category 1 and 3 training, ie a TAS check IS required. He had very, very limited knowledge on the whole thing. I believe I knew more than he did. As AllATPs state that, on that number, All schedulers are qualified CFI/II/MEIs, I am surprised ... I thought the TSA requires security training?
As far as AllATPs is concerned, then, their 'ATP' course is flight training. I find it surprising that they then expect people to visit them on a visa waiver. The potential problems make it a complete non starter. As far as I am aware the ONLY way to get an M-1 visa is to get an I-20 from the school. As AllATPs don't issue these, perhaps there ARE people who go through the whole TSA process and then pitch up at immigration saying they are there on holiday!
There must a Ppruner out there who has gone out to do their ATP written, light twin refamiliarisation and ATP check ride with AllATPs, or anyone else for that matter, who has been through this, been as confused as me, and now knows the ins and outs. And I am guessing that different people have done it in different ways. Actual experiences, preferable recent, particularly since the TSA clarified the meaning of 'flight training' earlier this year, would be very welcome.
Help! And thanks!
PS I have to say I really not interested in trying to go in on a visa waiver UNLESS I can get something DEFINITIVE on it being a valid route .... the results of failing at immigration or, worse, later on in the USA, are too grizzly from a career point of view to contemplate. Add to that, the several stamps in Arabic in my passport from countries the USA is none too friendly with, coupled with the words 'aircrew' on several visas, is likely to get the mildest immigration official going...
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Re: ICAO to FAA ATP - TSA & Visa
Apologies for bringing this to the top again, but I am no further in getting an answer and I now need to get cracking on this. I am hoping that a non-USA national may have been to the USA to get an ATP (or perhaps a Com) since my last post. If anyone can help, it would be very much appreciated.
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Re: ICAO to FAA ATP - TSA & Visa
Your best source of information would probably be someone at AOPA. Normally they require membership, but they might be willing to help anyways. If you are a member of an AOPA international division for a different country AOPA (US) would probably help as well.
Otherwise, best to do all of it, as mistakes made with immigration or the TSA can have unfortunate consequences.
Otherwise, best to do all of it, as mistakes made with immigration or the TSA can have unfortunate consequences.
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Re: ICAO to FAA ATP - TSA & Visa
Ping Pong - are you going to be receiving flight training, because as I understand the TSA regs, you don't need a visa, or background check unless you will be undergoing flight training. Hard to beleive but it is perfectly legal to enter the country with a Visa Waiver (that's your 'visa'). With the exception of a few, flight schools have always struggled with how to treat foreigners, and now with the required visa and TSA checks for most training, they charge an administration fee (usually the cost of the visa/check again). If you need a referral to a flight school savvy in this, and run by a European, I'd be happy to oblige.
I'm a Brit flying cargo under Part 135, and just recently got my ATP using the company aircraft. I didn't receive any flight training, and you don't need an endorsement to take the written or the practical test - both are based on experience.
If you feel you need to fly with an instructor, take them up as a safety pilot as that will probably save you a whole ton of hassle, and before anyone lambasts this idea, it is perfectly legal.
I'm a Brit flying cargo under Part 135, and just recently got my ATP using the company aircraft. I didn't receive any flight training, and you don't need an endorsement to take the written or the practical test - both are based on experience.
If you feel you need to fly with an instructor, take them up as a safety pilot as that will probably save you a whole ton of hassle, and before anyone lambasts this idea, it is perfectly legal.
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Re: ICAO to FAA ATP - TSA & Visa
You only need clearance for initial pilot training, multi training, and IR training.
http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf91/310342_web.pdf
Oh, and an FAA ATP is ICAO
http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf91/310342_web.pdf
Oh, and an FAA ATP is ICAO
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PP
I did my helo ATP in 2004 based on an ICAO ATP. As JB said, go in on a tourist visa (B1/B2) and use one of their instructors as a safety pilot only, this is legal. You will be PIC for all flying so no training done.
Do NOT mention any flying/training/flight school/examinations etc. to TSA/customs/immigration, they will interpret and enact the law as they believe it should work, you will get hassled and they may not let you in. Flying and training is a touchy subject and is not their field of expertise, avoid the subject. There is no requirement for an M1 visa as long as you are not going to get a higher licence or receive training.
Stick to the tourist reason for entry but if pressed by immigration etc., explain the situation and have documents to back you up. Look at www.state.gov and you can get details on visas and restrictions, I dont have the exact info with me anymore. Dont get caught lying to them, your life will be a misery if you ever go to the US again, computers have long memories.
I think the FAA system is great, despite lots of complaints I have heard. Its fair, straightforward, thorough and for a huge beauracracy, it works efficiently. Good luck
I did my helo ATP in 2004 based on an ICAO ATP. As JB said, go in on a tourist visa (B1/B2) and use one of their instructors as a safety pilot only, this is legal. You will be PIC for all flying so no training done.
Do NOT mention any flying/training/flight school/examinations etc. to TSA/customs/immigration, they will interpret and enact the law as they believe it should work, you will get hassled and they may not let you in. Flying and training is a touchy subject and is not their field of expertise, avoid the subject. There is no requirement for an M1 visa as long as you are not going to get a higher licence or receive training.
Stick to the tourist reason for entry but if pressed by immigration etc., explain the situation and have documents to back you up. Look at www.state.gov and you can get details on visas and restrictions, I dont have the exact info with me anymore. Dont get caught lying to them, your life will be a misery if you ever go to the US again, computers have long memories.
I think the FAA system is great, despite lots of complaints I have heard. Its fair, straightforward, thorough and for a huge beauracracy, it works efficiently. Good luck
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Off all the people I ever talked to who went to All ATP's, nobody was impressed with the service or training they received. Oh, but the price tag is so irresistable!!!
Based on all I've heard about the training provider, their "read between the lines" message is indicative on how they run their business as a whole. Good luck!
Based on all I've heard about the training provider, their "read between the lines" message is indicative on how they run their business as a whole. Good luck!
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Ping Pong
Just got back from US after gaining FAA Commercial and IR
Sat in on a University lecture by my Examiner
Bottom line is that you will be TSA'd by the school on day 1 when you arrive
Examiner will need the TSA candidate number when you go for checkride with your paperwork. My Examiner did not seem to be aware or care about visa (M1) or anything else.
I did go through the Embassy and did have an M1 Visa, I also paid for 2 applications for approval (IR & cpl)
Lessons learned - Nobody cares about the M1 and it is an unnecessary weaste of time and money - suggest you go on a tourist waiver and get TSA'd when you arrive (much cheaper than Farnborough, oh and you can get a US medical when you arrive also)
If I did it again I would take all exams in US, forget the visa and obtain medical on arrival (money saved will pay for flight time)
Great experience ! well worth a bit of paperwork inconvenience !!!!
Just got back from US after gaining FAA Commercial and IR
Sat in on a University lecture by my Examiner
Bottom line is that you will be TSA'd by the school on day 1 when you arrive
Examiner will need the TSA candidate number when you go for checkride with your paperwork. My Examiner did not seem to be aware or care about visa (M1) or anything else.
I did go through the Embassy and did have an M1 Visa, I also paid for 2 applications for approval (IR & cpl)
Lessons learned - Nobody cares about the M1 and it is an unnecessary weaste of time and money - suggest you go on a tourist waiver and get TSA'd when you arrive (much cheaper than Farnborough, oh and you can get a US medical when you arrive also)
If I did it again I would take all exams in US, forget the visa and obtain medical on arrival (money saved will pay for flight time)
Great experience ! well worth a bit of paperwork inconvenience !!!!
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From official TSA web-site www.flightschoolcandidates.gov
Visa Status Advisement
[08/25/2005] Taking flight training without an appropriate visa could be a violation of your immigration status and could result in your arrest and removal from the United States; therefore, it is important that you have a visa that permits you to take flight training in the United States. If you do not possess the correct visa, or if you have questions pertaining to your visa status or the appropriate visas for flight training, please contact your local Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services at 1-800-375-5283 or at, http://www.uscis.gov or the State Department Consular Affairs Office for assistance. The AFSP will deny flight training requests from candidates who are present in the United States illegally or who do not have an appropriate visa for flight training. Fees paid for denied applications are not refundable.
So you`d better get your M-1 to avoid lots of future problems. Choose the school carefully - they should provide you with I-20 if they are certified to train alien students, so if they tell you that this is your own concern, stay away from them (either they are not certified or just don`t know how this system works). And if you`re going to get your ATP on the basis of your JAR, ICAO etc. ATPL, make sure you sent the required form to the FAA, they`ll reqest your CAA to send the confirmation of your lisence to the District FBO (the one where you`ll be trained), otherwise you won`t be elligible for the checkride (and it could be time consuming, so take care about it well before- I had to go there twice just because of that). Hope this`ll help.
Visa Status Advisement
[08/25/2005] Taking flight training without an appropriate visa could be a violation of your immigration status and could result in your arrest and removal from the United States; therefore, it is important that you have a visa that permits you to take flight training in the United States. If you do not possess the correct visa, or if you have questions pertaining to your visa status or the appropriate visas for flight training, please contact your local Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services at 1-800-375-5283 or at, http://www.uscis.gov or the State Department Consular Affairs Office for assistance. The AFSP will deny flight training requests from candidates who are present in the United States illegally or who do not have an appropriate visa for flight training. Fees paid for denied applications are not refundable.
So you`d better get your M-1 to avoid lots of future problems. Choose the school carefully - they should provide you with I-20 if they are certified to train alien students, so if they tell you that this is your own concern, stay away from them (either they are not certified or just don`t know how this system works). And if you`re going to get your ATP on the basis of your JAR, ICAO etc. ATPL, make sure you sent the required form to the FAA, they`ll reqest your CAA to send the confirmation of your lisence to the District FBO (the one where you`ll be trained), otherwise you won`t be elligible for the checkride (and it could be time consuming, so take care about it well before- I had to go there twice just because of that). Hope this`ll help.
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What if you're already at a flight school and they've issued you with an M-1 visa for flight training, but you really don't like the place and want to move to another flight training provider? This is a realistic situation and one that I need advice on urgently. Thanks!!
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Many thanks to everyone who has replied, and apologies for not thanking you all earlier.
What a minefield this all is!
I must confess I am very tempted now to go in on a visa waiver. There are in fact two of us, one with an ICAO Com, and one with an ICAO ATP. As I see it, 'training' for the ATP is category 4 as far as the TSA is concerned, and therefore 'recurrent training'.... and no threat assessment is performed, and no fee charged, although some reduced information is provided to the TSA before beginning recurrent training. This is done after arriving but before beginning any training. The examiner is going to need the TSA number. Thanks Unfazed for your experience on this.
As we hold foreign licences it seems we need to get these confirmed by the CAA of the country of issue. Thanks for pointing this out Skyworker. I have looked at the legislation and this does seem to be the case. This, of course, just adds to the delay. Has anyone gone over without the confirmation?? It is the first I had heard of it! What about you jab?
Thanks also to Just Boxes, slim_slag, jab, and the rest. All your advice and comments, and the time you have put in helping me, are very much appreciated.
What a minefield this all is!
I must confess I am very tempted now to go in on a visa waiver. There are in fact two of us, one with an ICAO Com, and one with an ICAO ATP. As I see it, 'training' for the ATP is category 4 as far as the TSA is concerned, and therefore 'recurrent training'.... and no threat assessment is performed, and no fee charged, although some reduced information is provided to the TSA before beginning recurrent training. This is done after arriving but before beginning any training. The examiner is going to need the TSA number. Thanks Unfazed for your experience on this.
As we hold foreign licences it seems we need to get these confirmed by the CAA of the country of issue. Thanks for pointing this out Skyworker. I have looked at the legislation and this does seem to be the case. This, of course, just adds to the delay. Has anyone gone over without the confirmation?? It is the first I had heard of it! What about you jab?
Thanks also to Just Boxes, slim_slag, jab, and the rest. All your advice and comments, and the time you have put in helping me, are very much appreciated.
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NZLeardriver
Many thanks. The TSA have confirmed to me in writing that the ATP checkride does indeed require no clearance at all. The puzzle is that unfazed says the examiner will need the TSA candidate number. To register as a cat 4 is so easy, it would seem to make sense to avoid any problems on the day, ie TSA says not required, examiner wants number. As far as the visa is concerned, I appreciate the potential problems but it does seem feasible to go in on a visa waiver, as others have done, and fly with a safety pilot. This, of course, depends on the school / instructor! They will have undergone so called Security Training and will make their own decision on whether they can go that route. Naples Air Centre, for example, have decided they need you to have an M-1 visa AND TSA clearance. Others, judging by their experience, have found schools that require neither. I guess, in the end, one takes one's chance! And have all the reasoned arguments to present to any official, to show good faith, if it all goes wrong.
I hope the above thread has helped others as baffled as I was!
However, I do feel I need to make an apology... as I am now hoping to tie in my ATP checkride with a rating on the 1900, and the above thread may now not be relevant to me personally. Thanks for everyone's input...it is very much appreciated. As I already have a rating on the 1900 on my ICAO licence I will need a Cat 2 TSA clearance, but will need the M-1 Visa...definately! I am putting a separate post on the site for school recommendations.
Many thanks. The TSA have confirmed to me in writing that the ATP checkride does indeed require no clearance at all. The puzzle is that unfazed says the examiner will need the TSA candidate number. To register as a cat 4 is so easy, it would seem to make sense to avoid any problems on the day, ie TSA says not required, examiner wants number. As far as the visa is concerned, I appreciate the potential problems but it does seem feasible to go in on a visa waiver, as others have done, and fly with a safety pilot. This, of course, depends on the school / instructor! They will have undergone so called Security Training and will make their own decision on whether they can go that route. Naples Air Centre, for example, have decided they need you to have an M-1 visa AND TSA clearance. Others, judging by their experience, have found schools that require neither. I guess, in the end, one takes one's chance! And have all the reasoned arguments to present to any official, to show good faith, if it all goes wrong.
I hope the above thread has helped others as baffled as I was!
However, I do feel I need to make an apology... as I am now hoping to tie in my ATP checkride with a rating on the 1900, and the above thread may now not be relevant to me personally. Thanks for everyone's input...it is very much appreciated. As I already have a rating on the 1900 on my ICAO licence I will need a Cat 2 TSA clearance, but will need the M-1 Visa...definately! I am putting a separate post on the site for school recommendations.
Last edited by PingPong; 2nd Feb 2006 at 09:50.
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Good luck for the type and ATP.
My understanding for others wanting the ATP, the problem is not going to be the TSA clearance with either the examiner or the flight school, it is more going to be immigration. I spent a long time researching this and while I do not believe that you need a visa, the problem will be at your point of entry.
You can lie to the immigration officer, but if you get caught out (ie with a bag search) the consequences could be long lasting. For instance later in your career your employer wants to send you to boeing in Seattle, but the US wont let you in.
Another option is to be completely honest with the immigration officer, and hope that he/she is reasonable about it. Remember, they can make any decision they feel like. That particular agent can decide that you are corrrect, you don't need a visa for the ATP rating. But he doesn't like the look of you. Entry declined.
Of course that can happen if you have a visa, but much less likely.
It can also happen if you genuinely are a tourist and nothing to do with flight training, but not too likely.
Basically I do not feel it is a wise idea to try to enter the US on a tourist waiver with the intention of doing any flying at all.
My understanding for others wanting the ATP, the problem is not going to be the TSA clearance with either the examiner or the flight school, it is more going to be immigration. I spent a long time researching this and while I do not believe that you need a visa, the problem will be at your point of entry.
You can lie to the immigration officer, but if you get caught out (ie with a bag search) the consequences could be long lasting. For instance later in your career your employer wants to send you to boeing in Seattle, but the US wont let you in.
Another option is to be completely honest with the immigration officer, and hope that he/she is reasonable about it. Remember, they can make any decision they feel like. That particular agent can decide that you are corrrect, you don't need a visa for the ATP rating. But he doesn't like the look of you. Entry declined.
Of course that can happen if you have a visa, but much less likely.
It can also happen if you genuinely are a tourist and nothing to do with flight training, but not too likely.
Basically I do not feel it is a wise idea to try to enter the US on a tourist waiver with the intention of doing any flying at all.
