Question about seniority list merge.
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Question about seniority list merge.
Hello everybody!!! I would like to know how American and TWA merged their seniority lists. My point is to have some ideas to show to my airline wich is to merge the lists with two others of regional ones that became one. Thanks in advance.
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I`m not sure the AA/TWA "merger" would be a good example to use. Historically AA (APA) merger/aquisitions ie Air Cal/ TransCarib/TWA and Reno were very contentious. There has to be better examples out there!
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There has never been an amicable merger of seniority lists. The hostilities will not end untill the last 2 people involved in the merge have retired. Its not just an AA thing. Its true of any merger. Look at Northwest/republic. TWA was still fighting with the Ozark pilots when AA bought em, USair/piedmont etc...
In AA's TWA was ratioed in from the end of the 777 list basically....
It resulted in a large block being "stapled" at the bottom but the intent was to protect the career expectations of both sides to include the people at TWA who were hired before the first bankruptcy there and some of the ozark pilots...
But that is only half the story. Their were huge fences built around the St Louis TWA operation that has kept many of the former TWA pilots at captains even though their seniority could never hold it...
The TWA merger agreement (aka Sup. CC) would have looked alot better had September 11th never happened....
Cheers
Wino
In AA's TWA was ratioed in from the end of the 777 list basically....
It resulted in a large block being "stapled" at the bottom but the intent was to protect the career expectations of both sides to include the people at TWA who were hired before the first bankruptcy there and some of the ozark pilots...
But that is only half the story. Their were huge fences built around the St Louis TWA operation that has kept many of the former TWA pilots at captains even though their seniority could never hold it...
The TWA merger agreement (aka Sup. CC) would have looked alot better had September 11th never happened....
Cheers
Wino
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Seniority list merger
Thank you for your words. What happens here is the following: The mother company used to have two children. SL and JH. These two children ceased operations which were bound to mother´s operations including airplanes. Now the pilots have to go to mother´s seniority list by this rule: Take the number of the days you flown since you entered and x5,8=your number.Pilot from mother company. For the children company you do x3,8= your number. My point is :By any chance do you have anhother ideas how to deal with it? Even copy the way of other merger around is valid. Thanks!!!
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Hi NG
The thing to do, in my view, is to get the 3 pilot's associations together and work out a consensus ratified under the Union (SNA) umbrella. APVAR (Varig's pilot association) has tried for several years to have Rio Sul and Nordeste pilot's association on the same boat but without success. Now it's the time to come together. Just my 2 cents worth.
Regards.
PS On a side and happy note, all APVAR board members have just won, on court, they job back after being sacked by Varig during the IAM of 2001. Of all 62 pilots who were fired, 34 have already gotten their job back by court decision. Hopefully more to come.
The thing to do, in my view, is to get the 3 pilot's associations together and work out a consensus ratified under the Union (SNA) umbrella. APVAR (Varig's pilot association) has tried for several years to have Rio Sul and Nordeste pilot's association on the same boat but without success. Now it's the time to come together. Just my 2 cents worth.
Regards.
PS On a side and happy note, all APVAR board members have just won, on court, they job back after being sacked by Varig during the IAM of 2001. Of all 62 pilots who were fired, 34 have already gotten their job back by court decision. Hopefully more to come.
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I don't want to start an argument, but I must correct the comments about the TWA/AA merger.
The fence around TWA did not protect captain jobs for TWA pilots. In fact, every single TWA F/O has been furloughed, and many TWA captains with in excess of 16 years have been furloughed. Several hundred TWA captains with over 16 years were stripped of ALL their seniority.
The intent was not to protect the careers of any TWA workers. The intent was to eliminate the careers of as many TWA workers as possible (ALL flight attendants, including those with over 40 years of service, are furloughed).
Only a handful of TWA captains were merged into the AA seniority list, with a loss of over 20 years. The remaining 1,300 TWA pilots, including several hundred captains, were placed at the bottom of the list, below newhires at AA.
There were over 3,000 pilots hired at AA several years AFTER I was hired, yet I was placed on the list below all of them and I was subsiquently furloughed.
This was NOT an integration to be held up as an example for any future carrier. It was an outright violation of the Railway Labor Act which requires Binding Arbitration (which we were denied).
The sad thing is, the AA pilots have destroyed not only the careers of thousands of TWA workers, but also hopes of any other airline employees facing mergers in the future. I really don't see how they can sleep at night.
TWA gave Ozark pilots Date of Hire. AA gave AirCal Date of Hire. But the current feeling of the AA pilots is "pull up the ladder because I've got mine." They have advanced their own careers by standing on the shoulders of the TWA workers whose seniority numbers and careers they have taken. It is really, really, disgusting.
I just hope what the AA pilots did doesn't set a precedent, but I'm afraid it will. They have left a black mark on the industry which will be there for a long time.
The fence around TWA did not protect captain jobs for TWA pilots. In fact, every single TWA F/O has been furloughed, and many TWA captains with in excess of 16 years have been furloughed. Several hundred TWA captains with over 16 years were stripped of ALL their seniority.
The intent was not to protect the careers of any TWA workers. The intent was to eliminate the careers of as many TWA workers as possible (ALL flight attendants, including those with over 40 years of service, are furloughed).
Only a handful of TWA captains were merged into the AA seniority list, with a loss of over 20 years. The remaining 1,300 TWA pilots, including several hundred captains, were placed at the bottom of the list, below newhires at AA.
There were over 3,000 pilots hired at AA several years AFTER I was hired, yet I was placed on the list below all of them and I was subsiquently furloughed.
This was NOT an integration to be held up as an example for any future carrier. It was an outright violation of the Railway Labor Act which requires Binding Arbitration (which we were denied).
The sad thing is, the AA pilots have destroyed not only the careers of thousands of TWA workers, but also hopes of any other airline employees facing mergers in the future. I really don't see how they can sleep at night.
TWA gave Ozark pilots Date of Hire. AA gave AirCal Date of Hire. But the current feeling of the AA pilots is "pull up the ladder because I've got mine." They have advanced their own careers by standing on the shoulders of the TWA workers whose seniority numbers and careers they have taken. It is really, really, disgusting.
I just hope what the AA pilots did doesn't set a precedent, but I'm afraid it will. They have left a black mark on the industry which will be there for a long time.
Last edited by TWApilot; 23rd Mar 2004 at 02:49.
NTM,
Do I detect a note of sarcasm ? Hope not. Have you been on the receiving end of a life-altering screw job ? One can hardly blame the TWA guys being upset over the beating they took. From watching three mergers at my airline, I see that somebody always gets the dirty end of the stick...some sticks are dirtier than others.
Do I detect a note of sarcasm ? Hope not. Have you been on the receiving end of a life-altering screw job ? One can hardly blame the TWA guys being upset over the beating they took. From watching three mergers at my airline, I see that somebody always gets the dirty end of the stick...some sticks are dirtier than others.
Seniority list merger
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Yeah, the way it worked out for TWA was terrible. But the fault of that does not lie with the APA. It lies with TWA ALPA and Osama Bin Laden, and both of them have an equal share in the blame.
The APA offered something far more fair to the TWA pilots but ALPA rejected it in order to keep their legal options open. Tell me, how did that work out for you?
On the other hand, this deal put more risk on the TWA side of the ledger but they hard far more upside potential than ANY AA pilot got out of the deal and the airline industry not gone into a tailspin almost simultaneously with the signing.
The PILOTS treated the TWA employee's VERY fairly. They would have eventually had access to the whole airline. TWA fenced off OZARK forever from their wide bodies. Made em second class citizens. No Ozark guys were flying 747s when TWA had em.
Everyone will eventually be 777 pilots at AA.
Hopefully the TWA pilots will be back. WHen they come back they will eventually have access to all of AA once BDwhite does.
The flight attendants got stapled and shoved aside with no rights. Pretty raw deal, I agree.
Cheers
Wino
The APA offered something far more fair to the TWA pilots but ALPA rejected it in order to keep their legal options open. Tell me, how did that work out for you?
On the other hand, this deal put more risk on the TWA side of the ledger but they hard far more upside potential than ANY AA pilot got out of the deal and the airline industry not gone into a tailspin almost simultaneously with the signing.
The PILOTS treated the TWA employee's VERY fairly. They would have eventually had access to the whole airline. TWA fenced off OZARK forever from their wide bodies. Made em second class citizens. No Ozark guys were flying 747s when TWA had em.
Everyone will eventually be 777 pilots at AA.
Hopefully the TWA pilots will be back. WHen they come back they will eventually have access to all of AA once BDwhite does.
The flight attendants got stapled and shoved aside with no rights. Pretty raw deal, I agree.
Cheers
Wino
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Hello Wino!!! Thanks for your words. What happened here is almost the same problem that you desribed. The company showed a list and their apa did not agree and the worse, the two apa`s, mother and children operators do not talk each other.
The mother apa is weaked by mass exodus of it´s pilots, myself incuded. Hope this all wok out...
The mother apa is weaked by mass exodus of it´s pilots, myself incuded. Hope this all wok out...
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I'm afraid I must make a few corrections to Wino's comments again:
1. I'm interested in the comment that something much more fair was offered but turned down by TWA. What exactly was it? We were never offered anything more than we were given. Ever. We rejected the stapling of more than half our pilots because it clearly wasn't fair. All we wanted was an independant arbitor, a third party who would come up with a fair solution. AA pilots rejected that option because they did not want a fair solution. We could not sign a document we knew would destroy the careers of our pilots. And that's just what it did.
2. As to the TWA pilots getting more out of the deal than any AA pilot, I don't understand that either. We got zero credit for our experience and our years of service. I personally lost thousands of senority numbers. There are AA pilots who are 3,000 seniority numbers higher than they should be as a result, and they are able to fly bigger equipment and make Captain sooner than they should as a result. They are standing on my shoulders to bid various airplanes and routes, and I had seven years taken away from me.
3. Ozark was NOT fenced off the widebodies forever. Ozark pilots trained me when I checked out on the 767. Ozark pilots were the bulk of the most senior pilots at TWA at the time of the merger. Ozark pilots, far from being second class citizens, were the Chief Pilot and Assistant Chief Pilot at the time of the merger. Ozark pilots were permitted 16% of all training slots on the 767 and L1011 (since they made up 16% of the work force) untill the bottom TWA guy at the time of THAT merger could bid the equipment. Ozark pilots got thier FULL DATE OF HIRE. That is fair to me.
4. And I will NEVER be senior enough at AA to ever fly the 777, if I ever choose to go back to such a messed up company. I was almost a Captain, but now, if I return from furlough when recalled in 5-10 years, I'll never see the 777 and probably won't make captain on a narrowbody untill just a few years before I retire. Not exactly a stellar career prospect.
I'm confident that this will all be overturned in a court, and a fair integration will be obtained someday. But I must say I'm not even interested any more. I can't stomach the thought of ever returning to AA.
1. I'm interested in the comment that something much more fair was offered but turned down by TWA. What exactly was it? We were never offered anything more than we were given. Ever. We rejected the stapling of more than half our pilots because it clearly wasn't fair. All we wanted was an independant arbitor, a third party who would come up with a fair solution. AA pilots rejected that option because they did not want a fair solution. We could not sign a document we knew would destroy the careers of our pilots. And that's just what it did.
2. As to the TWA pilots getting more out of the deal than any AA pilot, I don't understand that either. We got zero credit for our experience and our years of service. I personally lost thousands of senority numbers. There are AA pilots who are 3,000 seniority numbers higher than they should be as a result, and they are able to fly bigger equipment and make Captain sooner than they should as a result. They are standing on my shoulders to bid various airplanes and routes, and I had seven years taken away from me.
3. Ozark was NOT fenced off the widebodies forever. Ozark pilots trained me when I checked out on the 767. Ozark pilots were the bulk of the most senior pilots at TWA at the time of the merger. Ozark pilots, far from being second class citizens, were the Chief Pilot and Assistant Chief Pilot at the time of the merger. Ozark pilots were permitted 16% of all training slots on the 767 and L1011 (since they made up 16% of the work force) untill the bottom TWA guy at the time of THAT merger could bid the equipment. Ozark pilots got thier FULL DATE OF HIRE. That is fair to me.
4. And I will NEVER be senior enough at AA to ever fly the 777, if I ever choose to go back to such a messed up company. I was almost a Captain, but now, if I return from furlough when recalled in 5-10 years, I'll never see the 777 and probably won't make captain on a narrowbody untill just a few years before I retire. Not exactly a stellar career prospect.
I'm confident that this will all be overturned in a court, and a fair integration will be obtained someday. But I must say I'm not even interested any more. I can't stomach the thought of ever returning to AA.
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Andy (Wino, whatever),
Why do give yourself the title of "union goon"? What I remember most about you was how you pumped up the virtues of ALPA at our small airline, but when it came time to vote in the union you handed your ballot to management in front of all of us. That really gave you credibility in my book.
>Cheers
>Wino
Why do give yourself the title of "union goon"? What I remember most about you was how you pumped up the virtues of ALPA at our small airline, but when it came time to vote in the union you handed your ballot to management in front of all of us. That really gave you credibility in my book.
>Cheers
>Wino
