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SAS pilot strike
The so called "pilotforbundet" representing about 100 SAS pilots has called a strike for sunday the 18. The purpose of the strike is to obtain a separate collective agreement with which to capitalize their current positions on long haul through improvements in their own benefits.
Their egotistical attempt is beyond contempt as are their threats to other SAS pilots regarding letters to IFALPA - an organisation which has never even heard of them. Help SAS break pilotforbundets strike by flying extra flights on long haul. brgds Kingsnake |
:hmm:Hmm, er en "kingsnake" giftig?:E
What letters to IFALPA are you talking about? Could this strike be a problem? I thought the company in it's statement mentioned 'no problem'? Empati |
Pilotforbundet is threatening to report those who fly to IFALPA as scabs. However as far as I know IFALPA has written to PFOR endorsing their plan to break pilotforbundets strike as it is a hostile act against IFALPA members by a free rider union.
So support SAS and PFOR and break pilotforbundet once and for all. :ok: I will. brgds Kingsnake (yes very dangerous :E ) |
This is really a non-issue, and will have no consequences. Does not deserve any attention whatsoever.
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Let me know when they strike. When management starts hiring strike breakers, my bags are packed and I'm, ready to cross the line and fly for SAS. As a Captain of course!
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You said that about the BA strike too. You've certainly got your fingers crossed that airline management teams around the world are going to suddenly want otherwise unemployable individuals in their operations. As captains of course.
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For god sake! If it isn't cabin crew it's flight crew or ground staff. Continue with these strikes and they will soon find themselves jobless!
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Careful....
Yes,
pilotforbundet tried to turn this issue upside down. They attempted to intimidate other SAS pilots so that they would not report for work when their strike breaks out. However, as SPF is the official IFALPA affiliate in Sweden(and there can be only one), the actions taken by pilotforbundet will be looked upon as hostile. They are not in a position to report anybody to somebody. So, if this really happens the members of pilotforbundet are the ones who will be in bad standing with IFALPA. Just the way it should be. The rather amusing thing is that they seem to think that the actions of ca. 110-120 pilots will accomplish anything. Especially after SAS came out and stated that they WILL NOT enter into any other collective bargaining agreement. Seriously, dont do this, you will be sorry. Initially it will hurt all of us, then only those who go down this path. Ramrise |
Whatever will happen, and regardless of how pissed some of you are at pilotförbundet; This is a very bad situation for all pilots in SAS! 15 years after the takeover of LIN, there are still a big conflict between the groups!
Will we in 10-15 years time see the same with ex BU and ex SC pilots...? 2 pilot unions in SAS Sweden, 3 pilot unions in Norway, but still (so far...) only one union in Denmark...!!! Something goes wrong every time SAS take over an other airline. The deal may look OK for SAS pilots at the time of the agreement, but this is a killer for the pilot community in the company in the long term!! |
Heads up!
Hanguren,
Something goes wrong everytime somebody buys somebody else!!! The industry is overflowing with examples of mergers, integrations and takeovers. And I have NEVER heard of any Seniority List Integration that went well. Some just go badly, others become disasters during the course of time. Why?? Among other things: unrealistic expectations from employees, bad management and the environment in which the process takes place. Ramrise |
Its legal..
Contrary to allmoust all other strikes at SAS, including those applauded by many here, in the past few years, this is actually a legal and legitamate work-action according to Swedish and international law.
With due negotiations and warnings to the company and public several weeks in advance. Something SAS could only dream of when it comes to the many yearly, illegal strikes in Denmark :}. Mind also that SPF (Swedish ALPA) contrary to most other national unions, has refused "pilotförbundet", the second largest pilotunion, a representative in IFALPA. This is quite remarkable cosidering their "smooth talk" about unity and how strong we would be together.. |
Blindfolded?
"only one union in Denmark"..
Is that because the Danish pilots prey on others, earn 30% more than the others and go on illegal strikes every 6 months to get what they want?! So watever you guys do, dont ever let yourselves be bought by a Danish-run carrier, they will take youre job and salary with no hesitation at all. :yuk: As a group they simply seem to completely lack moral and empathy. (Sorry, does off course not apply to the few great Danish colleagues I do know exist.) |
If you are not with us - you are....?
Captain S Pehrsson
President Pilotförbundet Box 170 195 24 Märsta Dear Captain Pehrsson We are aware that Pilotförbundet has been using the name of the Federation in press releases and letters without any authority and must insist that this ceases immediately. As far as the broader issue is concerned, I attach a letter that we have sent to the President of SPF that I trust makes our position clear. Yours sincerely Captain Carlos Limón President Captain Kenneth Jensen 09IND008 President 9th May 2008 Svensk Pilot Förening PO Box 1139 S111 81 Stockholm Sweden Dear Captain Jensen Thank you for the information regarding the actions of Pilotforbundet against SPF. It is not acceptable to the Federation that this group is seeking to undermine SPF as the sole negotiator for SAS pilots with the company, and your position as the IFALPA Member Association in Sweden. I can assure you that DPF, NSF and SPF have our full support in resisting any action to divide the SAS pilots in Sweden, and the IFALPA Industrial Manual makes clear in Chapter 1.2.2 that the actions of Pilotforbundet are considered as an act of hostility and a direct attack on IFALPA itself and will be dealt with accordingly. Please keep us informed of further developments. Yours sincerely Captain Carlos Limón President Captain Georg Fongern Principal Vice-President Professional Affairs |
Seems like President Carlos really spelled it out.
"Pilotforbundet is commiting a hostile act against IFALPA". And I just love his letter to pilotforbundet: Don´t use our name and don´t write again - love Carlos! I guess we will now hear that IFALPA is under some kind of svengali influence of the danish pilot union! OR maybe the rest of the world is right and pilotforbundet is wrong. Flying on monday and looking forward to it. :ok: Kingsnake |
Well, I am not swedish, and nor a member in SPF og Pilotförbundet, but I have been quite active in union work some years ago, and the situation is not new. IFALPA have some quite strange and hard rules regarding who is a part of the accosiation, and this have led to a lot of disputes in many contries:
In Finland, the union of Finnair had a sole right to be a part of IFALPA, which led to a situation where Blue1 pilots could not join the international community. Was that fair...? I think not...! In Canada, the situation was opposite; A dispute between Air Canada pilots and pilots from regional carriers (surprise; regarding seniority...!) led to a situation where pilots in all carriers in Canada except Air Canada pilots are a part of IFALPA. This was like 15 years ago, and Air Canada pilots are still not a part of IFALPA. A good situation...? I think not...! I neither salute or get angry about the actions by "Pilotförbundet". I can understand their opinions, I do not agree with all of them, but as I have written before; Even though SAS is not alone: They way they have incorporated other pilot groups tend to lead to separation and not unity. If all mergers were done the same way it would probably have been easier to accept, but when they even cant descide in ONE way to handle mergers, SAS and the pilot unions are asking for trouble! And by the way; Danish pilots are as nice guys as us Norwegians.... - and actually also those Swedes...! :) |
Good points!
However, any agreement must be binding to all parties as long as no substitute agreement is reached. Pilotforbundet has for several years tried to advocate a new agreement to replace the one on which the merger is based. Neither SAS, nor the SAS pilots are interested. So now Pilotforbundet will try to strike their way to getting what they want. Guess what, they´re going to get hammered, first in the strike, and if they keep moaning they can expect more pain in the next collective agreement. brgds Kingsnake |
Kingsnake:
and if they keep moaning they can expect more pain in the next collective agreement. |
Greed
IFALPA is a "political" organization, not a legal one!
And the question right now seem to be if they are able and willing to cope with todays rapidly changing airline world? If only "founding members" (Read old flag-carriers..) are allowed as members, while ignoring and refusing other groups to participate i their work, they will probably not be able to represent us as one group in the future. And that is a great loss for all of us! Still in 2008, seniority lists are used by greedy unions as a way to gain money and command on behalf of less fortunate colleagues, it is simply discousting! I also recieved this today.. Hello cap10lobo! This is a special announcement from PPRuNe Forums Admin. Further to our previous message about keeping your email address up to date and your password secure, we have found the cause of the repeated hack attempts into members accounts is a script (HackBot) that has been written with malicious and nuisance intent. As members profiles do not contain any information that should be of any value to hackers and studying the way the hack attempts have been carried out, it has been determined that the HackBot is intended as a Denial of Service (DoS) attack. As the computer running the HackBot is using an AOL IP address, after it has randomly tried to access an account, the account is locked out and the IP address blocked for 15 minutes. If another AOL user with the same IP address tries to log-in within the 15 minutes of lock-out, they will get the locked out message too. In order to stifle the HackBot, we have had to block the IP address being used which has caused more inconvenience to some AOL users. For this we apologise but it is the only way we can prevent the HackBot from running. We have also introduced a 'Captcha' image code section to the log-in which is designed to make sure that it is a human rather than a Bot trying to access PPRuNe. The Captcha image code is turned on and off randomly and you may or may not encounter it. Overall, the recent attack has not breached our security and is intended only to be a nuisance to the Admin of the site and to our members. It has only partially succeeded and the appropriate authorities have been notified. Once again, we apologise for any inconvenience that may have been caused by the extra security we have had to implement. Please click here to contact us for if you need any assistance. Is this what happens if you say tru but inconvenient things? |
Facts
cap10lobo,
I sense that you are at least somewhat sympathetic to the goals of Pilotforbundet. Let me just say that I am not. But, you must acknowledge that Pilotforbundet, in this case, is the aggressive party. Regardless of what you or I think, they are trying to muscle their way into a bargaining position that always has been, and always will be the domain of SPF/Pfor. Why? Because we will fight for it to the end and also because SAS has publicly stated that they WILL NOT enter into any other collective bargaining agreement. I urge all Pilotforbundet members to drop this strike. You will end up losing more than you could ever gain. Everybody else seems to realize this. Regards, Ramrise PS The discusting thing is how a small group of pilots want to enrich themselves and have everybody else pay for it. They acccepted the deal in 1993, now they have to live with it. This situation has less to do with seniority lists than it does with subversiveness and greed. |
Ramrise.
You must be joking!
They are asking for nothing else than fair treatment, equal pay, and the same chance for promotion. -Is it not true that they have lower salary for 15 years now? -Is it not true that several of them has been retired as FO´s with about half the retirement pay? -Is it not true that they get lower payment when sick then other SAS pilots? -Is it not true that insurance and Loss of license give them far worse cover? -Is it not true that BU pilots allready has a separate agreement with SAS? -Is it not true that all SAS pilots hired before 1993 are promoted despite the need for it? -Is it not true that the next one in line for promotion is the first Lin guy (1315)? (And taht will take years..) -Is it not true that they are deprived the right to be FC on the CRJ´s? -Is it true that Pfor choosed to raise the pay 750 for just captains? How much do you need before you see what unfair treatment is? Wake up! The strike is perfectly legal. And it is for once in SAS for a juste cause. It is not even unique in SAS with a pilot group with a sepaarte agreement, even though it is not the way it should ba in a perfect world. You on the other hand seems to be both ignorant and unfair in just every aspect here. |
Just out of curiosity, and perhaps I'm playing devils advocate here....but..
When a group goes on strike, they effectively (and very legally) collectively resign from their positions. All for one'... one or all... and all that. Seeing that this is about 100 guys, and seeing that SAS just signalled a need for further redundencies.... ummm... you guys not worried that they just might accept your collective resignation? |
According to their own website they have given up the strike.
:D PFOR-PF 10-0 brgds Kingsnake |
Thats supposed to mean that they can be confined to captains positions i Sweden from now on. Why should we exert ourselves to secure captains positions for them in all SAS Airline when they are so obviously in contempt of the pilot group as a whole.
Or maybe you would like to welcome them in SAS Norway HC? Be my guest :ok: brgds Kingsnake |
As expected!
Good, no strike.
The lingering thought is that these individuals would be better off somewhere else. They obviously do not care about their employer and even less about their colleagues. But, when push came to shove, they caved. Good. They will do that again. I suggest that they close down Pilotforbundet and join SPF. Then at least they will have a chance to change their work conditions, den grønne bog. Regards, Ramrise |
Ramrise and Kingsnake..
Mean and verry simple people..
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Oh no..
No, we just dont agree with you.
And we expect people to live by the deals they make. That goes for ex Lin and that goes for ex Bra in Norway. And Pfor pilots as well. Face it, there is one seniority list. And that list will determine how our career plays out. For me and for you cap10. Regards, Ramrise |
-Is it not true that they have lower salary for 15 years now?
Than what? Than they would have had in Linjeflyg??? -Is it not true that several of them has been retired as FO´s with about half the retirement pay? No. Not yet. And it will never happen either, as SPF, with their ex LIN colleagues in mind, has just changed the pension system so that a retiring FO will have a pension as if he was an FC. -Is it not true that they get lower payment when sick then other SAS pilots? No Definitely not. They have the same deal as everybody else. -Is it not true that insurance and Loss of license give them far worse cover? No. Same as above. -Is it not true that BU pilots allready has a separate agreement with SAS? Yes they do. That doesn't mean that SAS Pilot Unions or SAS for that sake should accept anye more of them. -Is it not true that all SAS pilots hired before 1993 are promoted despite the need for it? No. The need for them is (or was at least, depending on the new cost cutting actions) just around the corner. -Is it not true that the next one in line for promotion is the first Lin guy (1315)? (And taht will take years..) Yes. And they have a lower seniority. Big deal. And how many years it will take is just a matter of speculation. -Is it not true that they are deprived the right to be FC on the CRJ´s? No. Lots of the LIN guys have served as FCs on F50 and Q400 during the years. The same will go for the CRJs. -Is it true that Pfor choosed to raise the pay 750 for just captains? Yes, the captains got an extra pay tise of 750 SEK per month. What does thas have to do with anything at all? As if all FOs in SAS members of Pilotförbundet? |
Facts
Killersuricate is correct.
The ex Lin guys accepted a deal in 1993 that reduced their Linjeflyg seniority by 5 years. They were then placed on Kombilisten with their "new" seniority. In return for taking a five year seniority hit they were given a lifetime contract. In other words(as I inderstand it), they cannot be terminated, or if they are due to redundancy, SAS will have to meet pay and pension obligations for these guys until they reach age 60. Where else, but in scandinavia can you find such a setup? I work for SAS but I dont have a lifetime contract, I really would like a lifetime contract though. Now, ever since 1993 the ex Lin guys, the Pilotforbundet pilots as well, have worked according to the rules in the grønne bog. THIS MEANS THAT EVERYBODY HAS BEEN TREATED THE SAME!!!! And think about it, Cap10lobo, Pilotforbundet wanted to strike to get their own contract. That means that they didnt have their own and that they were being treated the same as everybody else. So, there were no discrimination built into the grønne bog, their position today is solely determined by their kombiliste seniority. Which brings us to the root problem. They got a good deal, now they want more. At the expense of the rest of us. We will not allow the hijacking of our Longhaul segment by a minority group. It will never happen. If they really, really want to start this fight we will bring the combined strength of DPF, NSF and SPF down on these guys so hard and so fast that it will be over before you can say "Pilotforbundet". All that I ask is that people accept and honor the deals they WILLINGLY entered into. I have absolutely no problems working with any ex Lin guy as long as he/she accepts the fact that Pfor represents SAS pilots when it comes to negotiations with the company. As a matter of fact, I have flown with many ex Lin people during my first years with the company, and guess what! We never had any problems. One last thing, the majority of ex Lin pilots I believe, are members of SPF. Pilotforbundet is sustained by a hardcore group of dedicated, yet misguided and narrowminded people. I think that this situation came about because of 25 to 30 people and their ability to set the agenda. Regards, Ramrise |
Just to set the record straight.
The Swedish pilot association, SPF (founded 1946), is party to the collective agreement with SAS. SPF is open to all swedish pilots, and is a signee of a number of agreements with most airline companies in the Swedish workplace. Every pilot in Sweden is therefore able to be a full IFALPA member. Most ex-Linjeflyg pilots are members of SPF and have been represented on the board of SPF since the integration. Pilotforbundet is a new organisation founded by pilots working for SAS after the integration of Linjeflyg in 1993. They have succeeded in getting collective agreements with a few startup airlines, primarily by agreeing to a lower standard of agreements. SPF has had contacts with Pilotforbundet off and on during the years in the hope of reaching a merger of the organisations. The percieved injustices of the Linjeflyg integration have stopped any serious interest from Pilotforbundet. The SAS pilot collective agreement is signed by three associations, one in Denmark (DPF), one in Norway (NSF) and SPF in Sweden. That agreement is valid for all pilots working in SAS regardless of affiliation. |
Say what..
You guys are truly the essence of why pilots can not be strong, united and cooperate. And please dont give me that crap about that PF are the ones to blame here. If you treat people like ****, they will not thank you and become your friends, verry simple!
Sprinter says.. "They have succeeded in getting collective agreements with a few startup airlines, primarily by agreeing to a lower standard of agreements. " This is simply a lie. All PF agreements are of a good european and scandinavian standard. And in a lot of cases much better than Pfor offers in their. Pfor´s own agreemant with SAS gives a newly hired pilot (If there will ever be one..) a much lower income (about 10000Sek/1000€ per month) that other airlines who have an agreement with pilotforbundet pay their new FO´s. Why? Probably sprinter and most of the "old" guys dont care as long as they get their own good standards. We have seen this before. A and B teams. Agreed upon by the A team, getting moore on behalf of the others. Simple "me myself and I" filosophy from the priviledged ones. :yuk::yuk: |
Ramrise:
All that I ask is that people accept and honor the deals they WILLINGLY entered into. HC |
And what deal did you not enter willingly, HC?
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???
Dear HC,
A wild guess on my part: you are ex BU and do not like the deal that was negotiated back in 2004?? Well, IF that is the case I highly recommend that you leave your curent union and join NSF. They are a much better outfit:ok::ok: Regards, Ramrise |
Ramrise and KillerS.
Do you guys really consider "take it or leave it" to be the same as willingly? Come on! Don´t disqualify yourselves from the discussion like that. HC |
Black and white, or not???
HC,
Of course, nothing is THAT clear cut. Everybody needs to step back and ask themselves: What if?? In these two cases, Lin and Bu, the likely outcome for the smaller companies would have been bankruptcy. That didnt happen(good for you both), but now the rest of the group(Pfor) is faced with demands that sometimes seem somewhat inflated and unbalanced. When the integration deals were negotiated, and this sounds harsh, it was the best deal that could be had for both sides. Or what??? Those who didnt like the deal had the chance to leave(some did following the Lin integration). IF you chose to stay that implies that on some level you accept the outcome and move on. Just like if I dont like the current situation I can actually chose to resign from the company!! Will I?? Not likely, and thereby I also accept my situation and this in turn, at least for me, stops me from bitching and moaning about things and circumstances that I cannot change. Pfor pilots have no inherent ill will against either Lin or Bu pilots. It is however bred by the endless whining of grown men in charge of their own destiny, but men who do not have the cojones to follow their convictions. They choose to benefit from the deals negotiated by Pfor, yet at the same time they use that as a platform from which to attack Pfor. They sit in our midst and wage an endless battle they will never win. I dont understand it!!! These days individuals are ingrained with a sense of entitlement(I DESERVE THIS, IT IS MY RIGHT GODDANMED). How did it come to this? I only deserve what my number can give me. Its that simple my friends!!!! We were all placed on the Kombilist by some sort of formula or key, we CANNOT change that key now. That would undermine the whole system and affect 2000 pilots. Regards, Ramrise |
I guess that cap10lobo here is part of PF and like all others I met from PF is not verry truthfull when it comes to the agreements with other companys than SAS. They only have agreemnts with two companys to date, Nordic Airways and FlyNordic(norwegian.se), Novair threw the out:Dand compared to all other Scadinavian and other European companys they have much lower sallarys...
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Do you guys really consider "take it or leave it" to be the same as willingly? Come on! Don´t disqualify yourselves from the discussion like that. But don't pretend it to be any different for you than for the rest of us. And stop discouragiging all others, HC. Maybe you'll learn something new if you stop pretending everybody else are no-brainers. |
Hej Hotel Charlie
You forget to comment on whether you are looking forward to welcoming the next 50 captains in SAS Norge from ex-LIN. You also forgot to comment on the fact that Braathens was bankrupt. Oh right - I nearly forgot. That´s a dirty PFOR lie as well. Check this out: http://www.sasgroup.net/SASGROUP_IR/...Braathens1.pdf page 14, ande others similar: Bakgrunn Braathens er i en svært vanskelig finansiell stilling. Etter å ha lidd betydelige tap de siste par år (rundt NOK 2 milliarder i perioden 1998 til 2000), er Braganza, Bramora, KLM og Braathens av den oppfatning at Braathens ikke er en levedyktig virksomhet på selvstendig basis. That´s management language for "BANKRUPT" :ok: enjoy your sunday brgds Kingsnake |
So right!
Sign the deal or loose your job!
Is that a "deal" whatsoever? You might actually hate it but since the larger group is threatening you about loosing your job (These were times when we did not even have any competition at all, the government still decided on airfares!?!) And now they are happily flying that production without hesitation. SPF/DPF/NSF has ruled every aspect of work without any consideration of others or consequences in the future for decades now. They use fear and intimidation untill everybody is in line.. Is thet someone you want to call acolleague or friend? Shame on them! |
obviously not enough intimidation - you don´t seem to be in line.. yet.
Now quit moaning before we really get pissed at you. You just want more money. Your not going to get it. What part of that don´t you understand? As for your pathetic stories - they are becoming more boring by the minute. Why don´t you leave SAS. You´ll do us all a favour. :yuk: |
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