Matriks, please prove your point by publishing a copy of the current LH and AF agreements - surely everybody else but me have a copy?

Not sure about the rest of the world, but in Scandinavia SAS is "special" in that way. Some understand the need for secretcy, I don't. I'm just pointing it out, no need for me to get the rest of the world to see it the same way.

Did not matter before, but now SAS is lying with a broken back, possibly relying on state funds to make those paychecks.

How about the SAS first officer on his 8th. year on leave of absence while flying for a well paying middle east carrier - and at the same time accumulating a full pension from SAS. Does that answer at least part of the questions why SAS is so close to the edge.........

If it is at all relevant for this tread it must be to show that it is cheaper for SAS to pay retirement contribution for the guys on leave than their full salary!?

hmmmmm.....which company that you can name would continue to pay you pension contributions while being on leave of absence ?

Matriks: Could you please explain what you are trying to say? SAS pilots have always been completely open with their salaries towards IFALPA and absolutely ALL other pilot unions they are cooperating with. What is it you are missing...? Where do you find information about other airlines salaries, but where SAS conditions are missing...?

Hawkeye: All airlines I know! All respectable airlines I know have a rule of; "first in, last out", and I say again this is the same for ALL airlines, including all majors inn Europe, Norwegian, Widerøe, Easyjet etc etc. Maybe Ryanair is not a part of this....?

Payment for a pension scheme varies from around 10.000 to 100.000 a year depending on the age of the pilot. This is the cost of the pension scheme, but if you get an agreement with the pilot union where you can fire a 1.2 mill pilot, and keep a 500.000 pilot I suppose even you can see what is the best solution for the airline....!

Hanguren.....please read again....pension is a factor of salary. If you don't get a salary - like when you are on leave of absence - you will not accumulate pension during that period.....except of course if you are employed by SAS

Can you fire a bunch of medium-to-highly paid guys to save their salaries? No.

Can you furlough a bunch of medium-to-highly paid guys to save their salaries? No.

Can you persuade a bunch of medium-to-highly paid guys to take leave with pension and save 90-95 % of their salaries? Yes!

Dusk2dawn:

"Can you fire a bunch of medium-to-highly paid guys to save their salaries? No.

Can you furlough a bunch of medium-to-highly paid guys to save their salaries? No."

Yes you can - and it's been done a few hundred times over the last few years. There are only medium - to - highly paid guys left with SAS. The youngest first officer carries a seniority of 11 years !!!!

I think it's time to understand that SAS is fighting for it's survival - you don't do that by allowing a full pension contribution if you are not actually working for the company....

hawkeye red, you are right. But only if you think it is cheaper to pay the compensation which will subsequently be awarded in the courtroom.

Dusk2dawn.....
Let me enlighten you.

SAS has laid off several hundred pilots within the last 8 years, none of whom have any legal right to claim compensation, since they were fired in an attempt to save the airline.

Which then is the cheapest:

a) To have a first officer on leave of absence claiming full pension benefits, while at the same time employing a first officer who claims a salary and a pension

or

b) lay off one first officer, call the beforementioned first officer back from leave of absence to active duty with SAS


Go figure that out.......

OK, I figure....: Bad management negotiated a bad contract which more bad management cannot get rid of. But that is not the fault of bad management who still has a problem with 20% too many destinations compared to the profitable legacy carriers ....

Can't wait the see Ryanair paint something like "Arrivederci Alitalia" on their planes. How about:

Stäng Alt Sammen ?

[If more than one reason may exist for SAS not to recall their furloughed staff in order to fire those truly not needed, I'll just leave it to the fabulous boys in STO to figure out why and what to do.]

How close SAS is to the edge? If we are to believe the links at boarding.no, then the Swedish and Danish governments are willing to sell their respective shares in the company. As long as this is economical (makes a profit from the sale). Trouble is that there aren`t any buyers these days, so it`s back to negotiations with the unions.

"Trouble is that there aren`t any buyers these days, so it`s back to negotiations with the unions. "

No buyers these days?
Yes, if price and more is adjusted to the market.
But the leadership in SAS is known for doing it "their" way?
Hopefully they have a good plan.

Don`t know how much the stocks are trading for at the moment, but before the figures came out last Wednesday they were around NOK4,oo. Last year, at the same time, they were NOK40+ -ish. Maybe the noggie government could buy the other shares, but should they? And then, who would be most fit to turn the old lady around and finally make a profit? Surely not a government who has absolutely no know-how of how an airline is run.

jager, maybe if the company was sold at the same price as they sold Spanair? But I agree with you; they are known for doing things "their" way, which doesn`t always mean it is the most correct way. And yes, hopefully (fingers crossed and knocking on a lot of wood) they have a master plan for a longterm profit.

Doom and gloom in SAS land?

I knew times were tough, but this bad? (Pull the plug?)

Is Norwegian and other low-cost operators running them out of business, OR just pizz poor managment?

More like oversized management and 39 unions to agree with on T&Cs. Too many different types of a/c for the same kind of flying (med-shorthaul), and not being able to turn a profit on lonhaul destinations with A330/340s.

Factor in the oil crisis of last year (maybe didn`t hit that hard due to hedging), the Q400 2-gear landings (subsequently ordering new CRJs from Bombardier), the Spanair takeoff disaster (and getting rid of Spanair for €1), the economic crisis, as well as competition from lo-co`s, and the need to lay off pilots and cabin crew and offer up early retirement packages to those on the high end of the payscale... I`d say they`re not doing half bad Analysts pretty much agreed that the Q2 loss would amount to SEK-1,4BN, but ended up at a far better SEK-1,0BN. The Swedes and Danes have now opted to sell their stakes, but nobody wants to touch this troubled outfit these days. LH maybe, but not until ze Ordnung musst sein! And ze price iz right