SAS, career or stepping stone?
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SAS, career or stepping stone?
After 16 years of flying for SAS, I've got to admit that I am so incredibly unmotivated, frustrated and fed up.
There is absolutely no career prospect in this airline. In my eyes SAS is a stepping stone, and not a place to stay or to build a carreer. When I joined, I thought I had come to heaven and that my future as a pilot was secured. Now I realize that SAS is just another dead end alley. Those who got out of this in a good way, are those who left for Dragon Air, Emirates and others 5-10 years ago. They were wise enough to leave before it really got nasty. The rest of us? We're stuck in this mess.
What mess you might ask? I'm talking confusion, disappointment, desceit and manipulation; the legacy from various mergers and buy-ups. Combined with a cunning and incompetent management this gives the most appalling working conditions obtainable.
I am so sick and tired!!! I beleived in a carreer in this company. That was a big mistake. I should have jumped off in due time!
It is so unmotivating to work for a company where there is no positive future prospects, no carrots. My command course has been cancelled twice. Me chief pilot do not care to inform me about the companys future plans. My salary is lower than it was 5-6 years ago. My working conditions is tougher than ever. The long haul segment is in danger of dissappearing all together.
Lately I've felt really lousy about it all, and at a couple of occations I have actually called in sick. Not because I have a physical ailment, but merely because I cant stand facing it all!
Actually, just putting on my uniform makes me physically uncomfortable. I have nothing but disgust for the whole company and situation.
Allright I still have a paid job. But I actually expected more, when I joined! What I am mostly fed up with is that you cannot really trust anyone. Not the management, nor the union. I do not want to post any mails on any union website. It will certainly backfire, as this is written with names,and the management has full access. Right now there are negotiations between the pilots union and SAS. So what do I think or anticipate? Not much; I do not trust any of them. I expect conditions and salary to get cut, hammered and severed again.
I used to be fairly ambitious. I was hoping for command on a wide body aircraft, flying intercontinental routes. I now realize that this is totally out of reach.
So what are my prospects at the peak of my carreer? Working my buts of as a commander on a 737. Flying domestic flights (or European with domestic layovers) with Norwegian colleagues, Norwegian management, Norwegian taxes, Norwegian cabin attendants, Norwegian ground staff, Norwegian weather, Norwegian training department, Norwegian culture!
Lately I have noticed I do not any longer envy pilots flying the big modern machines to the juicy destinations. I have become humble. I have humble goals. I want to retire. Yes, it happens sooner or later to most pilots, BUT I WANT IT NOW! I had my medical last month. I told the doctor that I was not well. Did he beleive me? Naaah!
Boy, am I fed up!!
M O
There is absolutely no career prospect in this airline. In my eyes SAS is a stepping stone, and not a place to stay or to build a carreer. When I joined, I thought I had come to heaven and that my future as a pilot was secured. Now I realize that SAS is just another dead end alley. Those who got out of this in a good way, are those who left for Dragon Air, Emirates and others 5-10 years ago. They were wise enough to leave before it really got nasty. The rest of us? We're stuck in this mess.
What mess you might ask? I'm talking confusion, disappointment, desceit and manipulation; the legacy from various mergers and buy-ups. Combined with a cunning and incompetent management this gives the most appalling working conditions obtainable.
I am so sick and tired!!! I beleived in a carreer in this company. That was a big mistake. I should have jumped off in due time!
It is so unmotivating to work for a company where there is no positive future prospects, no carrots. My command course has been cancelled twice. Me chief pilot do not care to inform me about the companys future plans. My salary is lower than it was 5-6 years ago. My working conditions is tougher than ever. The long haul segment is in danger of dissappearing all together.
Lately I've felt really lousy about it all, and at a couple of occations I have actually called in sick. Not because I have a physical ailment, but merely because I cant stand facing it all!
Actually, just putting on my uniform makes me physically uncomfortable. I have nothing but disgust for the whole company and situation.
Allright I still have a paid job. But I actually expected more, when I joined! What I am mostly fed up with is that you cannot really trust anyone. Not the management, nor the union. I do not want to post any mails on any union website. It will certainly backfire, as this is written with names,and the management has full access. Right now there are negotiations between the pilots union and SAS. So what do I think or anticipate? Not much; I do not trust any of them. I expect conditions and salary to get cut, hammered and severed again.
I used to be fairly ambitious. I was hoping for command on a wide body aircraft, flying intercontinental routes. I now realize that this is totally out of reach.
So what are my prospects at the peak of my carreer? Working my buts of as a commander on a 737. Flying domestic flights (or European with domestic layovers) with Norwegian colleagues, Norwegian management, Norwegian taxes, Norwegian cabin attendants, Norwegian ground staff, Norwegian weather, Norwegian training department, Norwegian culture!
Lately I have noticed I do not any longer envy pilots flying the big modern machines to the juicy destinations. I have become humble. I have humble goals. I want to retire. Yes, it happens sooner or later to most pilots, BUT I WANT IT NOW! I had my medical last month. I told the doctor that I was not well. Did he beleive me? Naaah!
Boy, am I fed up!!
M O
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There still is lot of other airlines hiring. Start with Ryanair and Easyjet if you like to stay in northern europe. If not start looking south to where your colleagues went.
Believe me , every company has it good and bad....
You must agree, that it was the time for SAS to make those changes in fight to survire.
Believe me , every company has it good and bad....
You must agree, that it was the time for SAS to make those changes in fight to survire.
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If you have a "greencard" fill out this application;
http://ups.softshoe.com/cgi-bin/job-.../job-show.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/40/12/
http://ups.softshoe.com/cgi-bin/job-.../job-show.html
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/40/12/
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You got my point, Kopeloi: If one wants a carreer, one has to look elsewhere for it. Don't think it is with SAS!
Whether it is justifiable for SAS to implement these radical changes: Yes, to some extent, but management attacks the same groups over and over again. One of these groups are the pilots. We pay year after year after year..... Thinking of where this will end, makes me cringe!
Surely every airline has it's good and bad, as you rightfully point out (I've been working abroad at a couple of occations), it is however hard to see the good things with SAS these days.
M O
Whether it is justifiable for SAS to implement these radical changes: Yes, to some extent, but management attacks the same groups over and over again. One of these groups are the pilots. We pay year after year after year..... Thinking of where this will end, makes me cringe!
Surely every airline has it's good and bad, as you rightfully point out (I've been working abroad at a couple of occations), it is however hard to see the good things with SAS these days.
M O
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Relativity...
M O,
Being in my 9th year with SAS I know all the feelings that you are experiencing, trust me. I have, however, chosen to see this as a new start. And, for the record, I am not a management pilot, I almost couldn't be further from it actually.
I never did see the glory days of SAS, and I never will. Not the glory days of yesteryear anyway. I chose to believe that there will be better days ahead. Why? Well, for a start the company is no longer the old SAS. And that is good!! We are much better suited to the competition of today that we were just 3 years ago. Had we not gone through that process we would have been dead in the water. Now, the pilots are, more than management it seems, determined to see that this airline is run the way it should be run. The profitable way, that is. We WILL NOT tolerate the frivolous use of money on politically savvy, but economically disastrous solutions. While at the same time the company presents us with demands for further cost reductions. They must think we are stupid.
What has happened, I think, is that most of the pilots have realized that the only way we have ANY chance of maintaining or improving our conditions is through PROFITABILITY. I do have some years to go before retirement and I want to make sure that the 'golden cow' is healthy and supplying milk. In other words, I want my pension to be as good as possible. (Right now the 60+ issue is threatening that, as some misguided individuals who still think that the 'money tank' is bottomless. They have enjoyed the good times and want more. How selfish is that??)
The unknown factor is of course the real business plan. If, as some say, it calls for a company of 1000 pilots we are screwed. If not, well, at least we have a chance.
Regards,
Ramrise
Being in my 9th year with SAS I know all the feelings that you are experiencing, trust me. I have, however, chosen to see this as a new start. And, for the record, I am not a management pilot, I almost couldn't be further from it actually.
I never did see the glory days of SAS, and I never will. Not the glory days of yesteryear anyway. I chose to believe that there will be better days ahead. Why? Well, for a start the company is no longer the old SAS. And that is good!! We are much better suited to the competition of today that we were just 3 years ago. Had we not gone through that process we would have been dead in the water. Now, the pilots are, more than management it seems, determined to see that this airline is run the way it should be run. The profitable way, that is. We WILL NOT tolerate the frivolous use of money on politically savvy, but economically disastrous solutions. While at the same time the company presents us with demands for further cost reductions. They must think we are stupid.
What has happened, I think, is that most of the pilots have realized that the only way we have ANY chance of maintaining or improving our conditions is through PROFITABILITY. I do have some years to go before retirement and I want to make sure that the 'golden cow' is healthy and supplying milk. In other words, I want my pension to be as good as possible. (Right now the 60+ issue is threatening that, as some misguided individuals who still think that the 'money tank' is bottomless. They have enjoyed the good times and want more. How selfish is that??)
The unknown factor is of course the real business plan. If, as some say, it calls for a company of 1000 pilots we are screwed. If not, well, at least we have a chance.
Regards,
Ramrise
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You have many valid points, Ramrise, and I too do appreciate that the company runs with a profit. I share your thoughts with regards to that it is likely that SAS will exist in some way or form in the future.
But you do reveal that your main point in your motivation is retirement and pension. How sad is that? You only work because you look forward to stop working (?)!! It seems like we have the same aspirations. And to me, that is just not good enough. I demand more out my job! I demand job satisfaction on an everyday basis! I demand pride in having and doing my job! And I demand confidense in the management and my union!
I once thought I would live to see this. Now, I don't!
The 60+ issue is, as you say, a question of selfishness. I think, to some degree, it is indicative of the time in which we live. These are times of individualism. Real solidarity vanished 20 years ago. With individuals like that (there are of course lots more) there aren't much hope for future union work. These guys would rather go for an individual contract, if that was more beneficial for them than a collective agreement. To some extent it is a privilige to work in a country with good legislation on this issue.
M O
But you do reveal that your main point in your motivation is retirement and pension. How sad is that? You only work because you look forward to stop working (?)!! It seems like we have the same aspirations. And to me, that is just not good enough. I demand more out my job! I demand job satisfaction on an everyday basis! I demand pride in having and doing my job! And I demand confidense in the management and my union!
I once thought I would live to see this. Now, I don't!
The 60+ issue is, as you say, a question of selfishness. I think, to some degree, it is indicative of the time in which we live. These are times of individualism. Real solidarity vanished 20 years ago. With individuals like that (there are of course lots more) there aren't much hope for future union work. These guys would rather go for an individual contract, if that was more beneficial for them than a collective agreement. To some extent it is a privilige to work in a country with good legislation on this issue.
M O
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Maris Otter
First, I understand your frustation. This sick to the stomack feeling is spreading like a wildfire - forget the birdflu. And guess what, it affects safety! Unlike what outside spectators might think - ref. check scanair. no/forum on this date heading "SAS piloter er fed-up."
Like Ramrise I choose to hope for better times. But I too have my down days... But then I fly with one of the ex-sk guys, and dispite differences, I feel up.
And guys, if you missed it, check NRK Brennpunkts nett-TV Tirsdag 8/11.
Regards,
Empati
Like Ramrise I choose to hope for better times. But I too have my down days... But then I fly with one of the ex-sk guys, and dispite differences, I feel up.
And guys, if you missed it, check NRK Brennpunkts nett-TV Tirsdag 8/11.
Regards,
Empati
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Maris Otter:
I must admit that at first I thought you were joking when talking about the appaling conditions that you feel SAS offers, but after reading through your post I came to the conclusion that youīre probably just suffering from the same disease as the rest of us - The Grass Is Always Greener On The Other Side Syndrome.
I can understand your frustration in working for a company that has talked about redundancies, costcutting and outsourcing for more than 3 years; nobodys morale is gonna improve after that kind of an ordeal.
However, it seems to me that you are very much forgetting an important question: What exactly is it that you want from your career and your life? Is it a bigger plane? A different location? Better layovers?
If you do some research you will find that it isnīt exactly everybody who loves beeing with Emirates and it isnīt everybody who loves living in Hong Kong.
Depending on the fleet your on, your pay is still good compared to the non-flag carriers around Europe. Talk to people working for the LCCīs and see if they envy you. I think you will find that your present job offers a much greater change of having a good social life than a "career" at easyJet, Ryanair, Air Berlin, Sterling or whoever you want to mention.
To put it diplomatically: You appear to have lost ground contact if you think that you will be able to survive a 20 year career with for instance a LCC even though you will have a quick upgrade.
I must admit that at first I thought you were joking when talking about the appaling conditions that you feel SAS offers, but after reading through your post I came to the conclusion that youīre probably just suffering from the same disease as the rest of us - The Grass Is Always Greener On The Other Side Syndrome.
I can understand your frustration in working for a company that has talked about redundancies, costcutting and outsourcing for more than 3 years; nobodys morale is gonna improve after that kind of an ordeal.
However, it seems to me that you are very much forgetting an important question: What exactly is it that you want from your career and your life? Is it a bigger plane? A different location? Better layovers?
If you do some research you will find that it isnīt exactly everybody who loves beeing with Emirates and it isnīt everybody who loves living in Hong Kong.
Depending on the fleet your on, your pay is still good compared to the non-flag carriers around Europe. Talk to people working for the LCCīs and see if they envy you. I think you will find that your present job offers a much greater change of having a good social life than a "career" at easyJet, Ryanair, Air Berlin, Sterling or whoever you want to mention.
To put it diplomatically: You appear to have lost ground contact if you think that you will be able to survive a 20 year career with for instance a LCC even though you will have a quick upgrade.
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not to point my finger at anyone....
...but I believe that most of the pilots in this part of the world never had a "real" job or have forgotten all about it....
I still consider my work to be more like a hobby....and loving every minute of it...well, maybe not getting up at 4 am...
...but I believe that most of the pilots in this part of the world never had a "real" job or have forgotten all about it....
I still consider my work to be more like a hobby....and loving every minute of it...well, maybe not getting up at 4 am...
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You got many points - Maris Otter. Being in another so called Air Line in Scandinavia, I find it hard to belive that SAS is no longer - the best deal around in Scandinavia - I agree that things and time has been hard to SAS. Try to talk to eks. colleques and check others forums - you will find that the grass is not greener at all. Airline business is changed for ever - low cost, fierce competion, 9/11 - I could go on.......... Bottomline is that the hey days of our trade is never going to return...... Better luck next time with your medical .....................
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MO has many good points, and SAS will be a stepping stone for some, which alone indicates a new era. SAS is too slow to turn around, and will therefore be struggling for many years to come. If you are looking for a challenging career, don't start with SAS. This company has for me so far been a great disappointment. I have never been in a crewroom with so much negative statements as SAS's, and the motivationfactor close to zero. The cabinsickness some days at 30% and 20% for the cockpit talks for itself.... This company is OK for the ones that doesn't care and don't like challenges.. With alomst 40 different unions, the management is not able to do much before this company either get split and sold in peaces to Lufthansa, or goes bankrupt.
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Maris Otter - I fully agree!
Status:
I mistrust my management, and have lost my pride of being a pilot within the SAS (Braathens).
I've lost my belief in the pilot unions abilities.
However - I don't want to move, or commute my life away.
People, please remember that a lot of your colleagues started a career as SAS-pilot, while their friends got a masters degree with the intellectual stimuli and career options this offered.
In retrospect my choice would probably have been to start a career in a professional world where your abilities to adapt to any working situation would have been appreciated, and would have been a stepping stone up to another job on the other side of the street. Nowadays my friends' pay checks make the "well-payed SAS-pilot" feel even more sure about the bad choices of my youth.
Still:
No one can take away my freedom to be a moaning individual without any solutions, so gentlemen (and ladies) thank you for your time...
Status:
I mistrust my management, and have lost my pride of being a pilot within the SAS (Braathens).
I've lost my belief in the pilot unions abilities.
However - I don't want to move, or commute my life away.
People, please remember that a lot of your colleagues started a career as SAS-pilot, while their friends got a masters degree with the intellectual stimuli and career options this offered.
In retrospect my choice would probably have been to start a career in a professional world where your abilities to adapt to any working situation would have been appreciated, and would have been a stepping stone up to another job on the other side of the street. Nowadays my friends' pay checks make the "well-payed SAS-pilot" feel even more sure about the bad choices of my youth.
Still:
No one can take away my freedom to be a moaning individual without any solutions, so gentlemen (and ladies) thank you for your time...
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Nice one APUS,
I always thought the 'career' of airline pilot rather an over-statement. It's just a job.
As soon as you are qualified you have effectively reached the peek, achieved all that you can achieve. Yes, perhaps you get a command but that is only a small change in pay and actual activity. Maybe you switch type, different routes, long haul, but still nothing much has changed from the day you started. A very few will get into management but they still do the same job as you when they are out on the line.
And from day one the game has been how to get as much money for as little work as possible.
So Maris, for my part, you can take your mid-life crisis elsewhere; we're all in the same boat!
I always thought the 'career' of airline pilot rather an over-statement. It's just a job.
As soon as you are qualified you have effectively reached the peek, achieved all that you can achieve. Yes, perhaps you get a command but that is only a small change in pay and actual activity. Maybe you switch type, different routes, long haul, but still nothing much has changed from the day you started. A very few will get into management but they still do the same job as you when they are out on the line.
And from day one the game has been how to get as much money for as little work as possible.
So Maris, for my part, you can take your mid-life crisis elsewhere; we're all in the same boat!
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Guys..snap out of it!
Apus wrote:
We are at war with our management, there IS no pride in being a pilot in RYR. We are not ALLOWED to have a union, so the management refuses to acknowledge any collaboration of fellow-workers. We do not want to move, but we are being based wherever MOL needs us. Furthermore, our paycheck covers uniform, medical, LOL, hotel and travel during training/OPC, ID-cards, car-park fees, etc...even our coffee while on duty! Not to mention if you call in sick, then you will have to work it in by being rostered max of the FTL. 100 hrs pr month. Our year starts April 1st. The FTL is by law 900 hrs pr year, but you may be flying 900 Apr-Dec and then 300 hrs more till April. Totalling 1200+ in extreme cases.
So guys, you still work for the best company in Europe.
Apus wrote:
I mistrust my management, and have lost my pride of being a pilot within the SAS (Braathens).I've lost my belief in the pilot unions abilities.
However - I don't want to move, or commute my life away
However - I don't want to move, or commute my life away
So guys, you still work for the best company in Europe.
Last edited by RYR-738-JOCKEY; 23rd Nov 2005 at 15:24.
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"My company bought a smaller airline and they have captains who are younger than me, and some of those who had the courage to leave SAS may ultimately make more money than me, so now I just want to retire."
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GoingFor737,
Do remember that it is highly probable that those younger captains in the other airlines were probably turned down by SAS, their first choice.
They were probably disappointed at the time.
Do remember that it is highly probable that those younger captains in the other airlines were probably turned down by SAS, their first choice.
They were probably disappointed at the time.
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Miserlou,
Youīre still full of yourself arenīt You? Why do you keep bringing the psych test up all the time? You obviosly must have some complex of som kind.
You know as well as the rest of us that there are a lot of SK guys that did not get into the Airforce while a number of BU guys did! So what does that say? That the SK guys are lesser pilots? Get a grip man!
GoingFor737,
Seniority wise maybe younger (which I personally feel is not right) but agewise and experiencewise most likely not! If you care to look at the average age of a 15 year SK guy and compare to a 15 year BU guy you will find the SK guy to be younger and less experienced. So go cry for your sick mother elsewere! If anybody is losing careerwise it is the ex BU guys that are not captains yet!
Youīre still full of yourself arenīt You? Why do you keep bringing the psych test up all the time? You obviosly must have some complex of som kind.
You know as well as the rest of us that there are a lot of SK guys that did not get into the Airforce while a number of BU guys did! So what does that say? That the SK guys are lesser pilots? Get a grip man!
GoingFor737,
"My company bought a smaller airline and they have captains who are younger than me,..
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HC,
Huh? I didn't bring up the psyche test. And there are many reasons why one may not be offered (or may not accept) employment with SAS or choose to continue with a current employer, commuting, command prospects, seniority and so on.
And, no, I know nothing of the SK, BU, air force stuff you mentioned. You must have turned left at the lights because you've lost me there. I really don't know what you're talking about!
As Twin 2040 mentioned, "...it is difficult to believe that SAS isn't still the best deal in Scandinavia", on paper, at least.
Figaretto names the problem which is industry-wide, there is very little green grass.
My first post on this topic was just being more blunt than Engell.
As pilots, we are a lucky lot, those of us who still have jobs especially.
Oh, but for those early starts. (Occasionally worth it just for the airborne sunrise!)
Huh? I didn't bring up the psyche test. And there are many reasons why one may not be offered (or may not accept) employment with SAS or choose to continue with a current employer, commuting, command prospects, seniority and so on.
And, no, I know nothing of the SK, BU, air force stuff you mentioned. You must have turned left at the lights because you've lost me there. I really don't know what you're talking about!
As Twin 2040 mentioned, "...it is difficult to believe that SAS isn't still the best deal in Scandinavia", on paper, at least.
Figaretto names the problem which is industry-wide, there is very little green grass.
My first post on this topic was just being more blunt than Engell.
As pilots, we are a lucky lot, those of us who still have jobs especially.
Oh, but for those early starts. (Occasionally worth it just for the airborne sunrise!)
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Sen och aldrig någon service... nah just kidding. I think SAS is still one of the best bets for employment in Europe. Too bad they arenīt hiring... Although I must say it looked better a few years ago... say around year 2000. In that way I can totally agree with Maris because you want your company to be expanding not laying off staff and all (while paying those who do the sacking a big BIG bonus if I remember it correctly)
The problem with the business is that everybody wants to do it (fly) but few get the chance. Those who donīt get the chance today buy a type rating and work for peanuts for a while hoping to get a "real" job soon. I know I did everything I could to get my job which usually called for spending all funds available and usually a lot more...
Once inside you really want to keep the salary and dignity of the job high! I hope we succeed. No letīs phrase that differently... We shall succeed in keeping a high level of dignity and high salary!
The problem with the business is that everybody wants to do it (fly) but few get the chance. Those who donīt get the chance today buy a type rating and work for peanuts for a while hoping to get a "real" job soon. I know I did everything I could to get my job which usually called for spending all funds available and usually a lot more...
Once inside you really want to keep the salary and dignity of the job high! I hope we succeed. No letīs phrase that differently... We shall succeed in keeping a high level of dignity and high salary!