The Argosy reborn at higher cost perhaps?

Now an A400M fan
 

I am enjoying this thread. You guys are great.
I think I have previously exposed my concerns about this A400M. (I becme loosely involved in 1995 and then on several A400M working groups before I finsihed last year- does that qualify me to comment? - I refer to another thread)

my point is that there is the art of the possible. A400M could probably do much of the role. not to the same extent as Nimrod so far as ASW goes.

Then there is the art of the affordable. we just have to face it as a nation we are destitute.

When I started work with the HJPT (before J and K merged then TriStar and then us S&AD people joined) there was a whole team looking after a proposed tanker version of the J. They were soon reallocated other dreamsheet tasks. One of those was an ASRA pallet.

We always finished up with something far less capable than desired. Difficult job to ballance the art of the possible with the art of the affordable.

I have no doubt that A400M (although late) will be worth waiting for and when in service it will grow the arms and legs to make it do all these wonderful things.

Now I must knock up some sketches to show how to drop torpedos and sonobuoys, fit a MAD boom and ESL pods (Fraudian slip for those Nimrod R men) Ah, there's another idea we will fit an ISO container full of Rivet Joint electrics. Sorry I think they did something similar on Snoopy.

A400M all things to all men. just need a good few more of them

Which aircraft will refuel RAF helicopters?

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...lin_HC3_lg.jpg

Probably an A400M
 

Re #240

I rest my case - we are not joined up. who allowed squillions to be spent equipping Merlin with probes without the means to exploit them when we were broke.

The money could have been better spent or left in the pot to be spent on benefits for us pensioners.

In years to come when we have all saved our pennies we will probably have enough to pay Airbus for the Mod kit. the French will have completed all the trials so nothing left for Q2 to investigate. And the major stakeholder in the CTT is?

The TCDS is a full Type Certificate.
It has, however, been issued with Limitations which, when cleared, mean the TCDS will be raised to Issue two.

That's EASA-speak for "Fudge".

MSN8 first flight
 

.....and then there were 2....

MSN8 first flight
 

First delivery
 

The first delivery to a customer occured today:
MSN7 was handed over to the the Armee de l'Air at the big show in Le Bourget.
:D

That is not correct. MSN7 was not at the Paris Airshow and has not been delivered.

The aircraft in the static park at Paris was MSN8 - the second aircraft for France - and the display was performed by another aircraft altogether. On Thursday night MSN8 left the show and returned on Friday from Villacoublay with President Hollande on board for his visit to the show.

MSN7 will be delivered to France in the coming weeks and is due to fly in the Bastille Day parade on 14 July.

Flares testing
 

Old hat I'm afraid, I do like the airframe though !

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/...pscc056ac8.jpg

Smudge

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps6ade5bac.jpg..

...makes it a look a bit like Dougal from the Magic Roundabout...
http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps1857131d.jpg

...or this, with differing whirly, spinny bits ;-)

http://www.militaryimages.net/photop...C17_Flares.jpg

Reminds me of this too....
http://www.venganza.org/images/sprea...avetouched.jpg

http://static3.businessinsider.com/i...0m_offload.jpg

PHOTO: Airbus Tests A400M Troop Deployment - Business Insider

Not the best demo of the ac's capabilities as neither of those vehicles will be used by the British Army in the next few years...........:ugh:

Its more idicative of just how long this project has been going. The contract had to list representative loads and at the time of writing Scorpion and Land Rover and trailer were it.
However looking at the photo the line in the Aircraft Spec that these loads should not need shoaring has either been deleted / ignored by Airbus and the PT. Mind you it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't yet another example of JATE applying SOP to a system which still hasn't had any procedures written for it let alone had them made standard.

The picture is indicative of nothing :) I think the A400M bay is dimensioned for 2 Apaches, or NH90 / Chinook. And serious vehicles. E.g Warthdog and this one

http://www.army-technology.com/proje...y/images/5.jpg

VX275 is spot on.
the envelope based on two Landrovers side by side was cast in 1995. At the time the spare wheels were being strapped on the side of the landrover not on the bonnet. necessitating widening the fuselage by around 6" (150mm in metric) from that proposed by Airbus.

The spec for the loads was referred to as Exhibit A. I never saw it updated in 10 years. the copy I held was an A5 spiral bound booklet about 1 1/2" thick.

I know Airbus struggled to keep the weight within that predicted. Growth ate into payload.

I lost touch with the detail two years ago but I know the team at ABW worked hard to get the best deal for UK. I don't remember ever seeing some of the bomb proof vehicles being used in Afg ever getting into the Exhibit A. Particularly the SUPACAT HMT variants. (Jackal) I know the French and Germans had a big six wheeler similar to the Saracen which was driving the design.

I am sure the highly professional guys at JATE would not exceed the agreed floor loadings. I understand they have been working closely with Airbus in Bremen. I think they would have the rear cabin mock up at Brize by now to be developing all the load plans.

Folks do realise that the flat floor is only 1/2 a yard longer than that of a stretched Herc. but you can get a SWB landrover on the ramp. It's great to have the width to walk around stuff though.

The wood in the picture may be 'floor protection' rather than loadspreading per se.

Floor protection indeed, too thin and too wide for standard load spreaders .

Cargo Bay Design
 

Exhibit A was as you describe, made up of all the loads that the partner Nations wished to carry in A400M at that time.

Thus, it was that:

The Warrior Recovery Variant - weight 31.5 tonnes - drove the payload.
A German ground to air missile system - drove the cargo bay height
Vehicles side by side drove the width and so on.

Having then set the dimensions there comes a moment when the design parameters have to be frozen to allow design work to begin. These then drive the design through things like aircraft component loads and very quickly it gets to a stage where nothing basic can be changed. Adding 50cms to the width of the fuselage has huge ramifications for weight, drag and then power required and speed as well as changing the interfaces with the wings especially. Likewise increasing the weight has huge ramifications for the loads on the wing and the design has to change to reflect these which in turn means further weight increases.

There always is a danger that the world will move on and the only way to compensate is to design to over-egged requirements but this then has a knock on effect on cost. The bigger the aircraft the higher the cost. I saw all this during my years with Airbus and even now the customers are still asking for apparently small changes without consideration for what they in fact mean when translated into reality.

I remember years ago seeing the then Army Multi-Role vehicle platform (I cannot now remember the name) - it was specified to be air-transportable in A400M but was outgrowing even before any metal had been cut and that was before the mega amounts of armoured protection for Afghanistan.

it isn't always a disaster when the content to be carried changes

remember the DC-3 was sized for the number of US overnight passenger beds it should hold................

First A400M Airlifter Delivered to France

LONDON — The French Air Force has taken delivery of the first A400M airlifter from Airbus Military following type certification and initial operating clearance of the aircraft in the last few days.

The DGA, the French military procurement agency, authorized the delivery today after issuing the military type certificate on July 24. The aircraft is scheduled to fly Aug. 2 to the French Air Force base at Orleans-Bricy from where it will operate.

The delivery marks the culmination of a 10-year effort by Airbus Military to develop a European airlifter. The program has overcome serious technical problems, delivery delays and budget overruns that almost saw Airbus and the partners nations scrap the airlifter.

Handover of the first aircraft follows the July 31 receipt of Type Acceptance at the Initial Operating Clearance standard from OCCAR, the European Organisation for Joint Armament Cooperation, which has been managing the project on behalf of the seven-nation effort................

Phew!...
First one delivered, next one out of the 'sausage machine' to fly soon, sans paint!... :ok:

Sans paint. I wonder how much lighter it will be? There is rather a lot of surface area to cover. :eek:

However, there are still "reduced performance" limits placed on this "delivered aircraft", with those restrictions to be lifted at some future date.

second one flew, painted, nearly 2 months ago.

http://airbus.hosting.augure.com/Aug...t%20hi_res.jpg

greenk - i suspect your comment is based on your experience with us airlifters, rather than any knowledge of a400m

yes, you are correct, but I wasn't referring to the second one...:ok:

MSN9 airborne
 

And lo, it came to pass that the 3rd production A400M flew on its maiden flight today - sans paint, as advertised. Goes into the paint shop next week, and will emerge in TuAF colours :ok:

MSN009 now got its paint job.
EADS Global Website - Airbus A400M flies in Turkish Air Force colours
"Merde gris" again... :(

Are Turkey doing their own flight testing then? Or are we being risk averse again...:E

Are Turkey doing their own flight testing
 

Are Turkey doing their own flight testing then.

Well the last I knew Turkey were taking the lead on all of the parachuting trials. (helped by Q2 and other UK formations)

No doubt some of these will be repeated specifically for UK by the same crew. A great deal of read across was being forecast to keep our [UK] costs down.

IMHO a very sensible approach was being taken.

One spotted flying over Ingolstadt yesterday, must be in Manching (EADS)

There was one out here in the UAE a week or two back - and before that they had one based here for a couple of weeks (presumably doing hot weather trials). It's an impressive looking aircraft and going by some of the post-takeoff climb angles it demonstrated it must be a decent performer.

FWIW, there were at least two approaches by A400M(s) at Blagnac on Monday afternoon (14Oct).

One was tootling about Scotland last week - spotted at Glasgow and Inverness amongst others

Looking at the photographs of the on A400M the thread it appears that customers can have the aircraft in any colour they like as long as it's grey - just add your own national insignia.

France accepts second A400M Atlas
 

From Flight Global:-

As the list of customers is in alphabetical order, I trust this means the RAF is not really last in line for deliveries!

PS - presumably it is down to that damn great photo that the quoted text (above) is formatted so wiiiiide...

They must be joking! I remember British Aerospace (as it then was) trying to push this in its various guises as Future Large Aircraft and A400(M) down our throats in DOR(Air) in the mid 80s. In comparison Nimrod MRA4 was a much quicker programme! That's not saying much I know!