Condolences threads
 

Moved from another thread.

Now I know I'm going to take some hits here but I'm saying it anyway, partly because I want to get it off my chests and partly because I hope that it will stimulate discussion - so here goes:

Is it just me or are some of the condolences threads on this forum turning into "cheesiest post" contests? Some of the comments being made are almost stomach churning with poetry being quoted, pictures of little children praying and, in many ways the worst, religious references which assume that the victim or their family are a) religious in the first place and b) Christian. In an increasingly secular and/or multi-faith society this is ever less the case.

When family or friends die, I don't want or need people to quote chunks of the bible at me or to send messages which tell me that God will make it all OK. For a start, I don't believe that there is a God and second, if there is he's doing a pretty poor job of it. I therefore find such religious "offerings" offensive and pointless - serving more to make the sender feel better than to actually help the recipient.

For example, when my mother-in-law died recently, the majority of family members found the condolences cards with religious messages to be distressing as none of us believe in God. "God" did not make it right, she is not "with the angels" etc etc etc. These messages actually made some of us angry because, if there is a God, he subjected my mother-in-law to 8 years of suffering with cancer and an untimely death at the age of just 61!

I an in no way diminishing the courage and sacrifice of our service personnel - I've had friends killed in these recent conflicts - rather I'm taking a swipe at the "Diana-itis" which seems to have crept into these threads of late.
Perhaps what I'm saying is think before you post - I know that I and all my family members (apart from the one who does believe in God) find such messages hurtful rather than helpful. Think - are the victim and their bereaved family Christian, Muslim, Jew, atheist, pagan etc? YOU may believe in your choice of deity and you may find such messages help YOU, but do they help the bereaved?

OK - vent your spleens now because I know I will have upset plenty of people.

(Edited to sort a couple of typos)

Moggiee,
you haven't upset me. You are entitled to have your own view on things and the fact that I happen to have a different viewpoint is the joy of living in a free society - a free society gifted to us by those who fought, and died, in the wars of this country.

If you are not related to the hero to whom the condolence thread is dedicated, then pay your respects and move on. Please don't tell the rest of us how to go about expressing our condolences. Indeed, one of those you single out for a 'special mention' lost his son one year ago in two days time. Perhaps a little more consideration on your part too?

I certainly don't wish to start an argument, but surely individuals deal with death in a very individual way. It is not up to others to tell them how they should express their feelings. What ever happened to tolerance and understanding?

Kind regards,
Brian

Brian,

I hope I don't sound as if I'm trying to tell people what to say - I'm trying to get them to think before they say it. At no time is it my intention to belittle the loss and suffering involved - as I say, I have lost friends in recent conflicts and in peacetime flying accidents

My wife was quite badly upset by the religious tone of most of the condolences messages that she received after the death of her mother - as was my father-in-law. Given that (as you say) "individuals deal with death differently", is it right for Christians to smother the message of condolence with Christian imagery or rhetoric when the recipient is NOT a Christian? I would never dream of sending a condolences card featuring a picture of Jesus to a Sikh, Hindu or Muslim.

Quite right that I should pay my respects and move on - this is why this is a separate thread from those condolences threads.

Regards

Moggiee

I'm with moggie 100%.
I have been thinking the same thing, but wasn't brave enough to start the thread.

moggiee,

A very sensitively worded post, I too agree 100%

I am sure you will be the subject of some pretty apalling rants over this but I am also sure that you are in the majority.

Having lost aircrew mates when I was in and since, I simply do not recognise the sentiments oft displayed here as being of the same Air Force.

I thought it was just me.

There's nothing wrong with expressing condolences and support, but surely it can be done without some of the over-emotive gushing, poetry spouting and emotional diahorrea we've started to see?

Or is it just a symptom of the creeping 'emotionalisation' of wider society, in which we festoon the roadsides with posies after accidents and heap flowers on the makeshift shrines that spring up at the scenes of tragedies, crying and emoting about people we didn't know?

Totally concur...although you have to be very careful where mourning is concerned. Balance things with the needs of the family to grieve and for workmates to raise a glass and then get on with what we do.

When its my turn can you just arrange for the bar to be opened (on my mess number) free beer all round, everyone pissed and saying "what a top bloke Pete was" ....

and then get back to work the next morning with massive hangovers and let that be the end of it.

"Bodger Lead from Four"
"Go ahead"
"Two's just speared in"
"Bugger. Bodger, renumber!"
"Bodger Two"
"Three"
"Bodger, follow me for tailchase......GO!"


OK - maybe we've come a long way since then, but I understand where moggiee and pr00ne are coming from.

And please, PLEASE no more b***y 'High Flight' on PPRuNE!

Agreed. Rather too much "Diana hysteria" creeping into the show of condolences I feel.
I, too, have lost Christian, Jewish and Muslim mates and I'm certain that all of them would rather be remembered at a bacon butty and beer bash rather than receiving insincere, or inappropriate, references to God.
When my wife died (unexpectedly young) some of the most moving tributes came from my Muslim friends who attended the church service in her memory.
I was a Christian, and although confused by the fact that God "moves in a mysterious way" remain one!
I still believe that much of the public showing of grief, particularly to someone they did not know, is so much over the top that it becomes cheap and tacky.

Jesus Christ, I've seen it all now.

I don't care about Diana, and if I don't know the man, I'll keep quiet. But if he's from my Corps, my sqn, if I knew him or if I respected the hell out of him, I'll remember him as I damned well like. And I won't be told otherwise. Jesus Christ. If its not bad enough that my gym has 3 No Smoking signs on the door, now some snotrag is telling me how to grieve. I suppose you'd give unwanted Xmas presents back or red pen badly spelt thank you letters from children? God, have you got nothing else better to do?

We can all cringe at other's posts here.. whether they're thoughts of Sharkey Ward, fitness tests, an aircraft or a unit. But a messageboard is about a Point of View and self expression, and thats subjective. Just as I respect the few who seek to dictate how the remainder of us remember those we knew, or respected, so must they respect how some of us do the same. This isn't a pissing contest, I've done far too much grieving and crying and had far too many sleepless nights and every time we lose a man I get upset as hell, so I'll express myself just as I f#cking well like and if you don't like it, you can f#ck off too. You obviously have far too much time on your small minded hands.

Message ends.

EDITED FOR TASTE.

Al R
I don't think anyone is telling you how to grieve. Thank goodness you have the balls to say what you feel...it does help. The bitch is more about the "hangers on" whose public display of grief to somebody they did not know and have never met is not always welcomed and often inappropriate.
However I would never wish to stop them, simply ask that what they say and do is rational.

Al R,
Another balanced post from you.
I read often but post (very) infrequently, but after seeing your 2nd to last line, I had to reply
W@NKER

Edited to add.
My sentiment remains, but at least you had the decency to delete the offending sentence:mad:

I did take that out before I read what you posted, it was a line too far, I accept that. But it doesn't make me a ******, but it sums up the polarised thoughts. If someone sent ME a card when I was grieving, I wouldn't care what religion they were.. the fact that they were thinking of me woulf be enough. Muslim, Christian, whatever.. isn't division through religion cause of enough problems today? Christ, what happened to compassion and empathy? If someone asks me how I am, I don't ask them first what religion they are!!

You don't know me, just as I don't know you. But that coming from a Cpl Plod won't cause me too much grief. ;)

But are we not cut from the same cloth.. have we not got onboard the same sweaty and smelly C130's.. have we not grumbled in gunsheds about the same things as these people, have we not drunk enough of the same !!!!ty mess beer? What more do we have to do to care for them, as we do our own?

Grief isn't rational, I feel for these guys a damned site more than I do the victims of Potters Bar, even though.. yes, I've travelled on trains and yes, I've grumbled about British Rail. We have an intangible link, and for someone to tell me HERE of all places that I should show grief iaw QR xyz is crap. Again, have they nothing better to do?? I'm stumped. I am almost effervescent with anger at their stupidity and insensitivity.

I may have been imbued with a different doctrine, but I know that you die for your mates and they die for you.. none of this Queen and Country stuff. With Chris, although I never knew him, I wore the same flash as him, with intense pride and loyalty, and I know what he will have gone through before the event. He could have been me, or anyone of those of us who joined up 25 years before. He was dealt a bum hand, but he has done more than ANYTHING anyone from Torpy downwards has done here (who can't even be arsed to say something on the MoD website by the way).. he has lost his life in the service of the Royal f#cking Air Force. And if the small minded amongst us can't even allow that to pass without inferring some kind of rules about how we personally express ourselves, then its a sad day indeed, and you're certainly not part of what I emotionally and mentally hitched aboard.

This has nothing to do with casual observers.. I have that link with him, and at least in the RAF Regiment, we are the same band of brothers, end of story. If someone else can't relate to that, its not my problem, and I certainly don't think that there are any grounds for sniping because of it. And the fact that I have to articulate that, or defend it, is almost obscene.

This discussion has been done before. The poems and all that guff make me sick, but its a free world as far as I last knew.
If you know someone, fair enough, but random cheesy grieving is a bit poor form really. Why not just do a short message of sympathy if you really feel the need to post??
If Jayteeto ever bites the dust, please feel free to use the time to stop typing the message and down a few Tequila Slammers instead. I reckon that a typical 'High Flight' post could be substituted for at least 5 slammers. Even a cut and paste would allow 2 shots!!

We agree then.

We will have to agree to disagree about that one.

You are correct that this is a place where any of us should be able to present any point of view we wish. However there should be a line and in my view you crossed that line with a crass comment.

Branch or trade makes no difference to me.

You seem sure we've not met, never caught then:cool:

Yup, as does mine. I've aaah, checked my schedule and sorry, but I can't see too many hours sleep lost tonight.

However many times I was caught, trust me.. it wasn't half as many as the times I wasn't. :ok:

And I removed it not because I suddenly decided I didn't agree with it, but out of respect. Something which a few more people around here need to learn.

moggiee
Well thanks for listening and starting this on a new thread instead of this discussion being on the young Gunners thread. I understand all of you who think comments may be too much, but please also understand Al R. You are entitled to your thoughts but so are others. Many people relate to death in different ways, many people relate these young lads to 'that could be my son', 'is my son next etc'.

moggiee i am sorry that you and your wife found condolences for your mother so upsetting. You may not believe in God, but what those people were saying to you was that through their own faith for a moment in time, they were reflecting on your mum, her life etc. In their prayers they were remembering her.

That is all people are doing on the condolences threads. Cut them some slack, you do not know the connections, you certainly don't know if they are hangers on, you don't know if they lost a son themselves 3 years ago. Not all people are as angry as you were when recieving condolences, but I think that has something to do with your immense loss and your grieving process. When your mum dies the overwhelming question is WHY?? and God seems non existant or either a wicked uncaring being. I am not into religion by the way, but for others it focuses their minds on thinking good on the behalf of those who have lost, and that is where the comfort should be.

Would Muslims and Jews really appreciate the bacon butties??? :}

Hear! Hear!
I have to concur. Just a simple message from friends and affected personnel is all that's needed. The gushy, slushy cr@p is best resigned to the condolance book at the funeral if needed not on a thread for military professionals!
Well done all for having the minerals to agree too.
:ok:

I think moggiee was referring to condolence threads in general, rather than the specific one relating to the Gunner. He was trying to partly make a point about the 'Diana-ist' approach to grief, as adopted by people who have no personal knowledge or connection with the person in question.

He has a point to some extent, at least in my opinion.

By the way, what is it about 'rocks' or ex 'rocks' (Al R and Airborne Aircrew I think) that means they are usually insulting people by their second comment on a thread. Between the two of you, you managed to get a previuos thread closed.

Standing by to be insulted. When I grieve, Wednesday was my last involvement with a military funeral, I usually find I am sad, rather than angry.

The mates I am referring to..... most definately. I chose the words carefully and with feeling.

Biggus,

I'll give you a few days to check and report back about how many threads I've been 'insulting' in. Its fair to say too, that you don't know of my involvement in the 'previous' thread either. And yes, I.. we .. might be different. Not better, just different. We aren't too clever sure.. but we have an esprit de corps and a bond that is articulated in a way you might not understand.

At the risk of sounding like Frank Slade at the end (you either know it or you don't), you should learn to be angry a little more. You might look at things differently.

By the way, 'the Gunner' had a name. Christopher Bridge.

Al R
I think you will find most of us use the term 'Gunner' as a mark of respect and achievement as opposed to calling him SAC or LAC. It is to recognise he was a member of the regiment.

My post was to Biggus, who clearly didn't have your sentiments in mind. Chris had a name.. given to him. With the greatest of respect, please take a second or two to use it.

Cheers.

moggiee,

brave words. Completely agree.

I'm going to stand with A|R here... Not just because I'm ex_Regiment myself but because I believe he is right in what he is saying.

I'll start by stating that I am an athiest...

As such, I have to agree with the OP... Some of the stuff put up in the condolences threads can be a little hard to stomach, for me. For some, I'm sure, it's appropriate and right, (not all atheists believe that theism is an evil to be ridiculed and rejected - I actually think that "reasonable" religious beliefs are extremely beneficial to both the society and the individuals within it).

Where A|R is quite right is that no-one, but no-one, can tell him or me how to grieve and what is an appropriate display of said grief. The condolence thread is not a work of art that is there to please all who see it. It is a place where people can place their personal message to the departed. In most cases the family will be utterly unaware of the thread and therefore, whether they are the "target" of the message or not they will, most probably, never see it.

Moggiiie:

I agree with your feelings about what is put in the threads. I too question whether the Britain I once knew has disappeared forever as a result of some of the displays. But your/our job is not to read the individual posts and judge them. It is to pay our respects in a way we feel appropriate and leave.

So... I agree... That I agree... but I disagree... If that makes sense... It does to me...

My intention was to stimulate discussion about a topic that (as can be seen from the replies here) many were wary about broaching.

Please note everyone that I intend no lack of respect to anyone (living or dead) nor do I wish to challenge anyone's religious beliefs (other than to say I do not hold any myself).

I did wish to make a couple of points, namely that these condolence threads have become rather gushy and cheesy and also that there is an assumption that religious comments provide comfort, when in fact the effect may be quite the reverse (as I have experienced).

I am surprised, and relieved, to find that I am not on my own here.

Al R and Cpl Plod. I am not telling you how to grieve, just saying that (in my opinion) the wailing and gnashing of teeth is starting to get out of hand. The fact that today is the 10th anniversary of the death of the "Peoples' Princess" is purely coincidental but oddly serendipitous.

The real potential for offending everybody is where heartfelt posts of condolencies are interspersed with random opinions of how the deceased might possibly have contributed to his/her own demise via some random act of omission. As I believe was started with the C-130 thread, having a condolencies thread running separately from the second guessers club added a modicum of decorum and avoided too much obvious insensitivity. By the way, for anyone who genuinely doesn't know, Jetblast is a far more appropriate forum for offering whimsical suggestions regarding the presumed marital status of your fellow pruners parents.

Crikey - Are you a Medic..? Or maybe you are in the band.

I understand what you are saying entirely and I don't believe that anyone believes that you meant any disrespect to the living or the dead. As I stated, I agree with your feeling about the content some of the messages. However, as I said a minute ago, your focus with regard to the threads should not be to read them and judge their content but rather to participate if you feel you need to and withdraw. In the same way you seem offended by the "gushing" you need to understand that those who "gush" may be equally offended by your, potentially "throw-away 'RIP Soldier' " comment. (Not to imply that I'm quoting you there).

It's a two way street... In the end it's not a place that anyone should be questioning the display or sentiments of others...

Given that there are multiple posts by several forum members on this thread, you'll find that more people have made comment on the condolences thread (myself included) whereas this one has more comments from fewer people.

It does seem to indicate that I have touched a nerve or struck a chord (depending upon your point of view).

Biggus:

Is it possible that it's condescending and ill advised comments like these that make Rocks respond with, errr... less than appreciative comments.

The funny thing is you chaps employ us to not stand down. You employ us to aggressively defend you. But then, when we exercise that aggressive nature as a result of your sniping you call foul.

Learn to live with that which you have spawned or learn to defend yourselves on your own... It's really not that difficult... Hell, even us Rocks can see it...

For goodness sake guys, get a grip. I did not know Chris, nor did I know the many others who have been killed whilst on active service in the many engagements the military have been invoved in. I do not know the thousands who lost their lives in WW2, nor the thousands in WW1. I stopped counting the number of mates I actually knew, who didn't make it beyond their early 20's, when I run out of fingers and toes to count them- and I had not even got to my first OCU. The fact is that I was, and still consider myself, part of the military family, and as such IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING, that my heart bleeds for every casualty we suffer. I do not feel the need to spell it out each time. However, for those who do feel the need, good on you.
And your point 1.4G?

Vecve said;

What do you have against RAF medics? I assume that was meant to be a snipe? They do ok in my book.. are there any other trades you'd like to have a pop at?

Keep it on topic please, chaps - all fighting to be conducted in private.

Agreed, people have their own way of expressing regret (not sure how much you can genuinely grieve for someone you never met). I'm an old fart, so I'm not that comfortable with condolences threads (not sure what they achieve). But then maybe this is just a PPRUNE/Internet thing and doubt it has any affect on the individuals actually involved in live ops(hope not anyway).

Mogiee said something about Diana, respecting others (especially him) and other people being different to him and how the grieving is getting out of hand.

So. Before you send one of your special (excuse me) holier than thou, non denominational condolences, do you determine whether the recipient is religious or not, and do you send a nice picture of God on a card as a result?

You haven't? You don't? You wouldn't? Quelle suprise. :rolleyes:

AA said;

Well said, and my last word in this awful thread.

Cheers AA.