CAS and Typhoon
 

I'm really pleased to see in this week's "SARBoy Weekly" that CAS has found the time to lead from the front and go solo in a Typhoon. :D

All the time money and effort for a solo sortie in the log book - WHY? What real value does it bring?:hmm:

Go for a whizz in the simulator = a damn good idea of what the thing can do.;) :ok:

Dear Sir, can I have a go too?

Can't say I blame the man; I'd love to have a go in one, even a 2-seater. As well as that, it's not a bad idea that the Head Honcho has first-hand experience of some of the new kit. I understand that he will also be checked out on the RAF's newest fire engine, followed by a quick course on the Mk XV lawnmower and ending the year with a conversion to the latest model toaster.

Never mind the real thing, I'll settle for a ride in the sim!

Where do I stick my name down?

When its your train set you can play with it anytime you like. Although I still believe that Senior desk-bound Officer + aircraft = potential disaster.

Just ask yourself this?

What would Bader have done?

What would Bader have done?

1) Never reached senior rank
2) Made the wrong decision
3) Been guided by self promotion and ego
4) Over-claimed
5) Represented an entirely inappropriate and irrelevant point of comparison within this thread

or

1) Led from the front
2) Not let rules, regs or petty safety get in the way
3) Inspired his boys while irritating the rest of the Command
4) Gone down in history
5) Criticised Bob Judson's diamond nine as a very, very pale imitation of what a big wing should be ;)

Doesn't even have to be 'your trainset'.....

I seem to recall a certain, then senior rank, blagging a last solo in one of the BAe Warton F.6's a few weeks before they stopped flying them......must have been years since his last Lightning flight:sad: .......and thus becoming the last serving RAF pilot to fly a UK military Lightning.

What an utter waste of time and money. Why aren't we throwing hours at the guys who are going to need it...Surely the most recently converted pilots would be a more sensible use of the assets. Would be interesting to see how many hours and sims were spent doing this. Especially as my unit has just been told to look at cutting trg hours from on high. And we've got aircraft on ops.

Smart political move by the Typhoon boys though...Keeps it in CAS's eye when it's show-boating around the UK airshow circuit for the next few years.

Still, CAS is a top bloke but he's been poorly advised on this.

rudekid,

May I refer you to my sarcastic comments made on the Darfur thread?

I agree with your comment.

It may have been irrelevant Jackonicko but I think that leading from the front does have it's benefits.

After all he can now talk to pilots on a level.
I would hate to be an Admiral who couldn’t command a ship or a General who couldn't fire the latest weapon etc. How on earth could you look your men in the eye whilst taking a parade?

How much would this solo have cost? How much time has it taken etc? has it put that bigger dent in pilot training?
Is there a hint of jealousy here?

Fly him in a T bird by all means - but leading from the front? Do me a favour - this sounds like 'boys with their toys'. I'd rather CAS would keep his eye on the ball in town. There are one or 2 hotspots out there that need a bit of attention surely!

Did Dowding fly Spitfires or Hurricanes in combat? Did Harris fly Lancs? Yes the great sqn cdrs such as the likes of Gibson and Cheshire led from the front, but I rather think that spending time on putting CAS in the air solo could be better spent elsewhere.

In the recent past, too many AOC 11 Gps (and 11/18) were rather too keen on flying the BBMF aeroplanes rather than leading and managing an organization. I rather admired BKB's attitude that he was there to concentrate on the key issues and operational deployments, rather than some of his predecessors- some of whom amassed a disgracefully high number of hours at the expense of sqn JPs.

Personally, I think it was a good thing. The 'Top Man' taking the time to get out of the office, and qualify on the latest kit can only:

a) Enhance his understanding of current issues.
b) Show him what a great job the front(ish) line is doing, despite all the cuts.
c) Show to the whole lot of us that he still can and more importantly
Wants to fly!

The costs are minimal, the rewards are great. Or, maybe you'd rather he was like the 'B' Word, with no interest in flying, and only 1500Hrs or so in his book.... Truely Shameful that was, IMHO.

Good on the Man says I !!

PS- Gizza Go?!

Advo

I am rather impressed by the rational replies to this thread so far (except for the appauling mention of the "B word", damn nearly threw up sir)!:{
The solo sortie will have shown him enough to get solo. Not enough for him to have seen the current issues. That solo flight cost thousands.:=
I would have been impressed with CAS's " leadership from the front" had I seen a piccy of him in a C130 / Nimrod / Chinny jump-seat in the fun-sandy places that we are playing in now. I.E. "A leader at the front, with the boys and girls in harms way, actually seeing the job in hand.
The "jump seat" by the way cos we need the qualified professionals in the drivers seats:ok:
Now, "Military Tourism" is a whole new can-o-worms.:E

Stillin,

Agreed, and I promise I won't mention the 'Scotish Grp Cpt' again! Oooh Bogger!

However, some is better than nowt.......... Terminally officebound senios are of no use to anyone! I take your point tho, some cockpit time in other types would definately help.

Advo

advocatusDIABOLI
Terminally officebound senios are of no use to anyone
Ain't that the truth bruv:ok:

On the other hand.....what possible good is it to the RAF that the CAS can take time out of a supposedly busy schedule to prepare for and conduct such a flight? Are we to expect annual refreshers etc? Every time a military aircraft, especially a FJ, gets airborne it is, or should be, a calculated risk assessed by the authorising officer of the chance of an accident happening now versus the need of the sortie to be flown.
It's not his train set, by the way, it's mine, and the 60m odd other shareholders of UK plc, and I can't see the advantage to us of the CAS adding yet more time to the much advertised 4,000 FJ time in his Log Book. Stay in the office, Sir. There is a pile of stuff in your in tray of much much greater importance, as per nearly every thread on this Forum!
Senior Officers should stay well away from the sharp end of their aircraft, they have a bad habit of ending up in the middle of a cabbage patch. I was once asked by one of them for a "go", and respectfully told him that it was beyond my authority, or his, to oblige. He accepted that with grace, perhaps today's Airships are less reasonable?

Having just read a thread about why everyone is leaving the RAF and that all the good bits of service life have gone, I'm now reading that someone who stays the course shouldn't take the smooth with the rough. So which do you want?

If the CAS had sorted all the problems facing his team(s), had reduced the PVR rate to well below the 5 year running average, had all RAF posts filled with the right people etc., then perhaps it'd be time for a jolly.

Chugalug,

You're a right barrel of laughs:ugh:

What would people say if it was discovered that CAS had an opprotunity to go solo on a Typhoon and declined? There'd be far more manking about what a bad show that would be.

He's CAS - it IS his train set, to all effective intents and purposes. Or should all 60m people in this country be consulted each time a decision is required?

CAS?
 

And I hoped for a discussion on the Typhoon in the Close Air Support role! What is it's primary task by the way?

Chug,

Sad to say friend, but you are talking from 'No-Suns-Ville'. It's the deskbound Johnnies that cause the snaggs, not the 'Engaged' types. I'll admit, that he has other important stuff to deal with as well, but give the guy a break, he's a freakin' pilot, remember?

Advo

Was, as far as front line aircraft are concerned, at his rank WAS a freakin pilot, I'm afraid. He could have always PVR'd, like so many of his subordinates are doing right now, if he wished to remain a freakin pilot. Right now his job is Leadership, a quality that the RAF is in dire need of, which means fighting its corner against the jumped up Town Hall graduates supposedly running this benighted country. That means doing Dannatt and Walker stuff, possibly on the porch steps of Main Building, a far more dangerous and challenging arena than the cockpit of a Typhoon!

You could always club together and fund him a few Cessna hours for Christmas if he is having withdrawal symptoms :)

The CAS could keep in touch with the youth of his parish and keep flying - just by joining an AEF - that way he'd get 60 hours a year with the ATC/CCF, who form about 50% of the RAF's intake.

You guys, esp Chugalug2, amaze me. Check the guy's CV.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy was born in 1953 and joined the Royal Air Force in 1974 after studying Aeronautical Engineering at Imperial College London. He has completed two tours flying the Jaguar in the reconnaissance role, a tour as a Qualified Weapons Instructor on the Hawk, and commanded a Tornado GR1A tactical reconnaissance squadron. He saw active service with No 13 Squadron during the Gulf War and was awarded the Distinguished Service Order in the Gulf Honours List. He graduated from the Royal Air Force Staff College in 1987, and subsequently filled a staff appointment in the Ministry of Defence before moving to be Personal Staff Officer to the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Strike Command. He was Station Commander Royal Air Force Bruggen in Germany, which at the time was the largest Tornado base in the Royal Air Force, before graduating from the Royal College of Defence Studies in December 1997 and subsequently completing the Higher Command and Staff Course in April 1998.

Air Chief Marshal Torpy was Assistant Chief of Staff J3 (Operations) in the Permanent Joint Headquarters during Operation DESERT FOX in Iraq and Operation ALLIED FORCE, the NATO intervention operation in Kosovo, for which he was made a Commander of the British Empire. He subsequently spent a short time as Director of Air Operations in the Ministry of Defence before taking over as Assistant Chief of the Defence Staff (Operations). He became Air Officer Commanding No 1 Group in March 2001.

During his time at No 1 Group he commanded the British Forces participating in Exercise SAIF SAREEA II and in 2003 was the UK Air Contingent Commander for Operation IRAQI FREEDOM, for which he was awarded the US Legion of Merit for his part in the Coalition operation. He was Deputy Commander-in-Chief Strike Command for one year from July 2003 before being appointed Chief of Joint Operations at the Permanent Joint Headquarters on 26 July 2004. He was made a Knight Commander of the Bath in January 2005. Air Chief Marshal Torpy became Chief of the Air Staff on 13 April 2006. During his flying career Sir Glenn has amassed some 4300 hours of fast-jet flying.

When I was in the RAF (yawn), I had to deliver a jet to TLP at Jever and the then Flt Lt Torpy was a member of the Jag element of that particular course. The guy in charge of our AD part of the program said he'd never seen a sharper pilot in his life. I met him a couple of times over the years and he certainly seemed pretty sharp to me.

Having looked at his CV, would you want some "blunty" as CAS or someone who blatantly has the ability to do the job, lead from the front, and from where I now sit in "Civvie Street", handle the politicians and the press pretty damn well? He's about the only head of the RAF in the last 50 years that deserves to be where he is!

I read the posts on this forum with a mixture of anger and incredulity. He's the Chief of the f£$%^&* Air Staff for Christ's sake. If he can't go and fly the latest jet then who the f£$% can? It IS HIS train set; he doesn't need to answer to 60 million tax payers, the same way I didn't need to answer to them when I led 4-ships at low level having a bit of fun down the A5 Pass in Wales or around the Highlands of Scotland.

The attitude of people in this country makes me weep. The "Fun Police" have definitely taken over. The "Jobsworth" attitude has permeated every level to the point that unless every useless prat can do it then you can't. Yet at the same time, people are quite happy to watch so called "celebrities" pi$$ money away and do outrageous things without any comment. Perks of "rank" and "position" are dirty words because the person that cleans the toilets might be offended.

Good on the CAS I say. And I hope he keeps going back to stay current!

If you don't like it, resign.

BusterHot

Sadly chap, I don't agree. The CAS is, in my opinion a top bloke and with a proven track record as a very capable operator. However, the point seems to me that in an era where his 'train set' is facing massive financial restrictions on anything that doesn't seem to help the delivery of operational effect, then he has been badly advised or made an error of judgement.

My unit has (as I have already stated) been tasked to look at how we may reduce our training hours to accomplish the same effect. With a third of our daily line ac in the ME, we are currently facing an uphill battle to get any training in the UK. With our current dilution rate (we are losing experienced operators all over the place) we are faced with giving less training to less experienced pilots and still deliver the goods in theatre. THIS IS NOT JUST HAPPENING AT MY UNIT.

Tell me then, how we can turn round to our 350 hour first tourists and say that we can't provide the additional hours they need to get CR, prior to going to the ME. Then tell the guy who has already been three times this year that he has to go again because we can't get the baby pilots to CR status. This is a function of the lack of training hours.

But it's okay because CAS has gone solo on Typhoon! Well done.

Now I appreciate that Typhoon might have hours to burn, but I suspect not. I believe that Typhoon now has first tourists ab-initio pilots. Why aren't they burning the hours?

You may begin to see how other units may have a slight issue with the 'presentation' of this.

If the CAS wants to fly IN it, all very well. If he wants to fly the sim, all very well. Nonetheless, if you can demonstrate how him flying solo in it provides any increase to our operational effectiveness and I will eat my hat. Except the badge!

Point well and truely taken.

Forgive me, sitting on my ass “outside”, I’m obviously not aware of the constraints being put upon you all. Seems nothing changes – they still expect everyone to make do with bu%&er all.

However, even with all that bo££ocks, I still can’t see how letting one guy, the most important guy in the RAF at the moment, go solo in the damn thing, is going to change much. If he flys it in a 2 seater, to get to the point where he fully appreciates what it's like to fly/operate, it's only going to be about 2 hours less than if he flies it solo. So he goes solo, is that a big deal? 2 hours in the big scheme of things? I think not. Now if you want him to get "operational", then that's another matter. BTW, is the Stn Cdr allowed to fly? I mean, he really doesn't need to fly it either does he?! Or OC Ops? Where do you draw the line?

I’m not advocating every 1, 2 or 3* pitching up for “a look-see”. God, that used to pi$$ me off when I was on the F3 OCU at CGY when every man and his dog wanted to fly the sucker (not sure why{!}). However, even then sometimes when the relevant * saw what it could and couldn't do, it helped - a bit. Even now I still think that if C4 hadn't been allowed to fly it as Stn Cdr, we might have got the damn thing working a hell of a lot sooner (did it ever work?!).

I’m sure even you can make an exception!

Best wishes.

The one thing that comes across in all these posts is the respect that the CAS is held in by their authors. I am delighted to see that, I really am. But I hope that respect is based on his ability as Chief of the Air Staff of the Royal Air Force, and not as a FJ pilot. The two are really quite different, he is no longer operational, and I would think that from the AT and SH guys point of view he might appear to be stuck in the FJ world and the introduction of the Tornado. Meanwhile there are real problems of personel and material shortfalls in just about every direction you look, especially in those areas that are fighting not one but two wars. Personally I would like to see him speeding up the painfully slow fitting of ESF to the Hercules Fleet, to resolving the fate of the Chinook Mk3 fleet, and if he has any time left getting the scandalous slur cast on two deceased Chinook pilots reversed. There are other considerations for the head of the RAF to concern himself with than personal indulgence. All right BH maybe it is his train set, all the more reason to behave responsibly! You don't see the Fat Controller driving Thomas around, simply because he can! Think of how the other engines would feel!

Fast jets? Very 1990s, as some mates in the Army would say. Isn't the real work at the moment being done by SH, ISTAR and AT? (Harrier excepted).
I also agree with previous correspondents that Stn Cdrs and above shouldn't be taking hours from the JPs when the latter are short of experience and struggling for cockpit time. Invest in the future. Let the operators get on with their job and concentrate on the real battles that require the attention of senior management and leadership. Resources, retention, conditions, welfare etc - let alone the battles with the Treasury & Civil servants and, let us face it, the other 2 services - many of whom in the MOD are trying to undermine the RAF.
I may be wrong - if so I propose a new programme for the 'lead from the front' CAS.
Mon - am deal with in tray, check press cuttings; pm - 4 ship lead from Marham.
Tue - Q at Coningsby and conduct promotion board, postings etc from the shed. Nothing like a bit of long screwdrivering!
Wed - am sortie as ALM in a Chinnok; pm stand in for OC PSF at Leeming.
Thur - Control sortie on E-3D, evening night flying currency on Tucano at Cranwell.
Friday - am C-130J work up; pm - spot of approach work in ATC followed by 5 minute meeting with Des Browne to catch up with 2 major conflicts that teh UK is engaged in - followed by happy hour on the 'Belgrano' (rig: flying suit to show leadership credentials).
etc......

I can´t remember who said it, but it´s good quote,

"I´m all for senior officers flying FJs. It´s bl**dy good fun - and the survivors are worth having...."

Orac,

That's one of the best quotes I've heard in a long time. Brilliant!:ok:

I'm quite glad that CAS is reported to be a decent bloke and good pilot. As a taxpayer I don't begrudge him a few Typhoon hours. However, in the climate where everybody has to justify every single hour of flying this does seem a bit unneccesary.

Most of all though, I think the Air Force should shut-up about Typhoon until such a time as it can deliver some useful operational capabilty. The guys who are fighting the 2 current wars do not give a toss about the 100th Typhoon being collected by the Stn Cdr; the first Typhoon formation loop-the-loop; or the first Typhoon wing-walking display by a member of the Air Force Board. When it has dropped bombs on bad guys in sandy places then it will deserve a place on the front page of Pravda. Until that I'm afraid that any attempt to pretend that it is not the wrong aircraft at the wrong time is just spin.

Good Point
 

I remember the CAS as FltLt at RAF Brawdy in late 1983 and back then (24 years ago) the guys knew on Sqn he was v good and when he Glenn spoke they all stopped and listened.

CAS should go fly the Typhoon sure, but at the end of the day the new "war machine" is NOT proven until it has been there and done the deed.

FB

I'll bet that just about everyone on this forum who was capable would jump at the opportunity to fly or have a ride in a Typhoon.

It is a shame that the current CAS won't be around long enough to get some P1 hours on the MRA4 when it arrives. I reckon that would be right at the top of his 'to do' list. I'm sure he would be straight into his HS125 up to Kinloss and demanding some seat time.;)

Rudekid
I can see where you are coming from
During the late 90's, new fits, additions and improvements to the Nimrod Mr2 fleet were being handled by the Sqn trg teams (STT's), as the OCU only taught core skills
The OCU course length had already been tailored down to barely 6 months, which was very demanding, particularly for the Navs
A policy change was intoduced to take this workload away from the STT's which introduced 3 new core skills into the syllabus
The guidance from the OCU Boss was
"The syllabus is to be reviewed and re-structured to incorporate the new skills - the course will remain at the same length and there will be no additional funding or staffing - however, you should all identify any savings that can be made during the review"
Stealth reduction in Trg, hours and cash!

Okay, so he flew the aircraft solo. But what did the sortie comprise? Presumably after his quick work-up, he wasn't part of a 2v2 AD epic?
But can he? He may have taken off and landed - but what did he actually see of its capabilities? Is he au fait with all the radar's features, and all the weaponry? Surely he'd have been better in the sim, or the back seat of a T1 watching a fully-fledged Typhoon pilot engage in some proper AD stuff?

And even if the sortie did include some AD work, so what? AD is a role that the RAF hasn't done (defined as a fighter using its weapons in anger) for nigh on 60 years.

Yes - but CAS should spend his precious time seeing what the RAF is doing operationally, rather than slipping the surly bonds of earth for the sake of it in a stillborn aircraft which can no doubt top the windswept heights with easy grace but not, it seems do much else...(apologies to John Gillespie Magee)

For those not concerned about the cost, I'm sure I heard not long ago that the operating cost of a Typhoon per hour was not just twice as much as any other UK military aircraft, but was not far off a six-figure sum?

Why not bin the entire Typhoon programme, selling the existing aircraft overseas, retain a flight of Sea Harriers at London City for the supposed Q task, and put all the savings towards helping the business end of the RAF and its people?

TOD wrote:
Well that will stir up a hornet's nest, no doubt as you intended, but you have a point!
Throughout the first world war the British Army kept the cavalry in readiness behind the lines, awaiting their moment to exploit a breakthrough by the infantry, in order to pour through the gap and enable a breakout and the reversion to a more mobile form of warfare. And they waited, ...and waited. By the end of the war mobile warfare was again possible, but technology had moved on and it was tanks not horses that made it possible. I wonder if we are not now facing a similar situation . As the Taliban Air Force is conspicuous by its absence, air superiority is a given in sandy places. There is little doubt that eventually the RAF will have to fight for it at some time in the future, but what with and where? Meanwhile the Typhoons wait... and wait, but are at the moment irrelevant to the matter in hand. If CAS is interested in the operational side of the RAF, he would be better off flying in something that is actually engaged in one of the two wars his political masters have landed us with. But much better still, stay in the office and try to solve some of the insuperable problems that the RAF now faces, like the airworthiness of those same operational aircraft!

Typhoon's first operational deployment, Gordon Brown permitting, is to be to Afghanistan, and not in the air-air role... (and that is in the public domain)

Assuming that the programme goes as intended, then the strain on the GR4 and Harrier fleet will be alleviated by Typhoon in the AG role. Yes, the first AG fit is 'austere', but the term is rather misleading. Potentially, that could mean four PGM, two fuel tanks and a Litening III, which is less austere than some aircraft...

And if we bin the Typhoon, what do we replace it with? How much will re-training the pilots who've already done the Typhoon OCU cost? Ditto for re-training of those who service and support the type? What about the waste of money already invested in the infrastructure for Typhoon? Where does the money for infrastructure for and training on the new type come from? How long between disposing of Typhoon and the more useful new aircraft becoming operational? How much would clearing British weapons on the imported type cost? Or would we buy weapons the aircraft is already compatible with, adding logisitical burdens to the service? What would the implications for aircrew retention be as an aircraft that appears to be hugely popular with those flying it is withdrawn with the prospect of flying a less capable machine when it arrives (since it won't be an F-22, whatever it is)?

Getting rid of Typhoon would leave the RAF relying upon two aircraft types for air-ground work, one of which (Harrier) is likely to face fatigue issues that will have to be rectified at significant cost within the next decade; getting rid of Typhoon increases use and brings that problem forward. GR4 has an OSD of 2025; getting rid of Typhoon would potentially increase the burden on that fleet, risking a reduction of airframe numbers as the type runs out of life thanks to greater than predicted useage. So the plan would risk reducing the airframe numbers and the ability of the RAF to provide an attack capability.

Of course, if prepared to hedge that the US will make up the difference, or that we can be sure we won't need the missing capacity in capability until JSF enters service with the UK (now looking like the early 2020s), then the plan only represents a massive loss of money instead of being a huge risk as well.

By the by, the cavalry were awfully effective under Allenby in Palestine and the odd cavalry charge has been useful in Afghanistan (what's the Pushtu for 'Donkey Walloper', I wonder?).

By all means don't begrudge Le Grand Fromage a spin in the latest shiny toy, but don't get confused over "leading by example". If CAS needs to know the optimum way to fight the Typhoon and win the Air Battle, I sincerely hope he would have the nous to get that information from the people who are paid to do exactly that, that being several ranks below CAS.

hi everyone!

I found this issue intresting, and I would like to add a piece of information to the debate.

Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy , visited and flew aboard the rafale recently, and that wasn't a problem in the sens that there was no controversy about it.
Maybe it is wrong, since all air forces are subjected to budget restrictions but i am not in this "business" like some of you are, so my opinion is of little importance.
but perhaps this news can help some of you to make your point...


http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/index.cfm...FB230750159FD9