Pay As You Dine has emptied the Dining Room(Of diners)
 

The Wardroom at Culdrose has a massive dining room with plenty of tables. Unfortunately however there's normally only a couple of tables occupied at dinner time. Pretty poor food(compared to all other Wardrooms), trivial charging procedures and a complete lack of atmosphere have driven most people away. With that the once(and continuing elsewhere) enjoyable and social occasion of dinner has been destroyed. The 'Kitchenettes' in the accommodation passageways are now well fitted out and people are found cooking microwave meals there instead. This place is now just like a student accommodation block. No wonder before I arrived the guys(and girls) based here were all advising living out, and the majority now do.

Feneris, agree however (seeing as I am not there at the moment) I thought they let you have the option of taking your PAYD meal in the Datum should you so wish? I know that place lost a bit of atmosphere after the Berni Inn makeover but it does still retain a bit of character, certainly more than the drab dining room where (in my experience last time stationed there) there were more staff than diners and they spent the whole time watching you, ready to pounce as soon as you have finished.

The only time its worth dining there is Taranto Night!

There is little point moaning about it. PAYD has arrived as a result of people moaning that the food was too expensive and that even if you didnt go to a meal, you still paid for it. We asked for PAYD ....it hasn't been thrust upon us.

The Sea Lords conducted the PAYD introduction with care. they condyucted an intensive and failrly long trial. The asked people what they thought of it and the general consensus was that it was good. Therefore it was introduced.

Agreed, it kills Wardroom life BUT its what we asked for so there is little point moaning.

I think you will find the minority moaned and the brass didnt do an adequate survey. Why should they? another area to cut costs.


I am bl**dy sick of the idea of PAYD, as are the vast majority of Livers in, many of whom see this as yet another attack on our standard of living and our way of life. Well mark my words, they will never ever be able to stop any Officer carrying a crate of lager or bottle of their own wine into the bar and consuming it at half of the cost of what it will cost once PAYD not only destroys the dining room, but also the bar as well. Oh yes, before I forget, once PAYD takes over the bar, forget any subsidies towards the summer ball (massive reduction in subsidy if any) and rediculous function prices. This will kill the messes.

Why oh why, seeing the trials at Leuchars and Henlow have not gone swimmingly, have we continued to persue this junk? Or is it due to cost savings the scheme will realize? The original request, as I remember it from the moaners was to have a sheet to sign on a nightly basis to declare whether meals had been taken; NOT for our bar to be robbed and be charged for individual portions of bread, butter and the such. They have turned our messes into a chain of McChav. :ugh: :yuk: :yuk: :ugh:

Didn't do an adequate survey..???? are you bonkers? PAYD has been trialed for years. It was first mooted in 1971. Is that not adequate enough for you? It has then been in service and working perfectly since 2002. How much longer would you like?

???? yep, you are bonkers.

PAYD IS NOT the whim of some senior guru looking for promotion. PAYD is being introduced because that is what people want. It is what was asked for.

.Never would suit me fine. And if its such a popular idea, why are we not being allowed a vote from the mess membership as to its introduction? (typically a 2/3 vote would be required)

Last time I checked, the mess was NON PUBLIC (IE hands off).

Oh yes, tell me, where exactly are business supposed to make profit from such a hair-brained scheme? From charging 5p for a slice of bread, or ramping bar prices to their maximum allowed? I suspect the latter, it is this issue that particularly worries me.

Just so we dont get our wires crossed, I am not talking about supplementary bills for lunches etc, which functions well. I am talking about the farce that is going on in numerous messes as a pre-rollout to some crackpot scheme, including having to swipe cards for your food (silver service?) and being pounced on like a criminal for requesting an extra slice of bread or an item which is not "core menu".

If the survey was carried out as long ago as the'70's, I suggest you check current sentiment, because ffrom as far as I have experienced, there is not exactly a majority supporting this scheme. Furthermore, as it appears you are of the dark blue persuasion, may I suggest that the light blue experience of the scheme may not have been as well recieved.

.
Well maybe the minority asked for it, but it is some civil servant jobsworth that is self-justifying their existence by introducing this tosh. And as far I can see, what was asked for is a long way from what we got.

Working perfectly???

Have you been to Leuchars or Culdrose? Mess life has been destroyed in both places, with people at Culdrose all seeming to eat in the Datum, and at Leuchars in the service station like Cafe behind the mess. Whether people wanted it originally, surely now the truth has been seen its time to abandon what were meant to be experiments and test cases, and go back to the old system.

apologies for spelling as ever.

Southside, bonny lad - you mentioned 'moaning' - surely the RN expression is 'dripping' ?

Do you chaps still get bread & dripping sarnies when you go off-watch prior to hot bedding in a warm, smelly cabin?

Have you still got those disgusting "transit cabins" on shore bases for visiting aircrew and VIP's ?

Had a good day at Culdrose in the Wardroom and flying in a Merlin, circa Jun 2000

....erm, thats the purpose of PAYD...durr !!!

Well I hate to point it out, Durrr but most of the mess members are happy with cheap food and silver service as opposed to McChav on base :mad:

I hate to say it but we did all complain about paying for meals that we were not eating (old system), and to be honest the Culdrose mess had died long before PAYD took over, it was the removal of squadrons and the ‘youth’ wishing to go down town to bars rather than stay for happy hour. Life is changing we cannot just expect everything to stay the same (as much as we would like it to!). Some people said it was the requirement to wear a jacket and tie that is killing the mess, look at all the people who dive in for early meals! PAYD is not perfect but can not be solely blamed for the killing of mess life.
I hate it because I can not pay with my mess number!!!

My point is, we asked for a scheme very similar to the one we have already, IE you sign a slip and you can still eat what you want, instead of paying for anything outside of core menu. Instead, someone has seen it as an opportunity to completely mess up the way we live. I certainly have not heard of many complaining about the "old" scheme, and I am fairly new to the services. I really dont think its the "youth" that ARE the problem. I do get the impression that at some stations, for inexplicable reasons, mess life is dead. I would suggest that may be the result of poor ents rather than unfavourability of the old scheme. But back to my other original point, if this IS so popular, why are the messes not allowed a vote as it is such a major change? We vote on everything else. Plus, the messes fall under non-public accounts.

Did anyone else read last week that PAYD is being 'put on hold' (ie. scrapped) for all RAF bases in the imminent future. Not sure about Navy tho.....

Here we go again with the endless moaning about PAYD, you might wish to refer to last thread on this. While I agree that it is far from perfect you have to look at it as a whole issue. Prior to implementation of PAYD only 50% of personnel took their meals in Messes. Therefore, 50% of personnel must now be happy with PAYD because they do not have to pay for meals they do not eat. As for the rest, well its a partnership and if your Contractor does not provide what you want, then there is no profit for either side. There needs to be more dialogue from both sides. As a final point, if PAYD is so bad does that mean MACs are good?

For what it is worth the same issues are being raised at the Green sites as well. Some very senior officers writing to express their displeasure and that of their commands regarding PAYD.

It doesn't mean that because 50% were unhappy with the old arrangments that they will be happy with PAYD. Quite the opposite as I would guage a higher proportion are unhappy with PAYD. A solution was needed but perhaps this is not it. Why could you not just pay for the meals you attended under the original arrangements?

Soldiers are reported to be unable to eat as they spend their money by halfway through the month and I have heard reports of the posibility of malnutrition rearing its head. Bizarre I know. Self discipline, but this is perhaps what some of our younger charges lack in this day and age. Combine this with individual rooms and the lads are no looking after each other as a team and tend to operate in social isolation that can lead to this situation.

HEDP

Last week I was on a course at RN establishment, and ate in a galley where visiting personnel simply entered their details (name, rate, service number, unit etc) and ticked which meals they took there. Surely this sort of arrangement would prevent people from being billed for meals they don't attend?

Exactly WEBF,

And that is why I cannot see the problem with PAYD.

Sure, a few hardcore mess enthusiasts who eat 3 meals a day in there every day might complain, but the VAST MAJORITY, including myself when I lived in the mess, resent paying for meals that we do not eat.

Why should people pay good money for a meal on friday night that they are not eating. Three meals on Saturday that are not being eaten, and then three further meals on Sunday that they do not eat?

mbga9pgf,

If you really do want to eat a Silver Service meat and vegetable meal every single night of the week, may I be the first to suggest that there may be something wrong with you? Me, and most of the people I work with, fancy from time to time a curry, a kebab(Pardon me) a chinese etc.... and would appreciate not having to pay for a meal in the mess at the same time.

Yes I appreciate that prices in the bar may go up slightly, but is that not a small price to pay for not being charged for all those meals that we are not eating in the mess?
Especially seeing as you so angrily state that "You will never stop an Officer from bringing his own crate of lager/Bottle of wine into the mess?"

Unfortunately this is not the RAF of the 1960's and as Southside correctly stated, People have asked for PAYD, and the people that have asked for it have by far and away outweighed the moaning lifelong mess members such as yourself

Of course, you're probably a really funny "out there" guy really:yuk:

Someone needs to do some research. I do not know one person who is happy with PAYD. The idea was good in principle and I agree that people shouldn't have to pay for 3 meals a day they might not eat, but the way it has been implemented? I know people who will argue its case on this but they all agree it has a larger negative affect than positive. It has destroyed mess life and made people unwilling to live in the mess. The majority are unfortunately very unhappy with PAYD!

The idea of PAYD is great, but the way they've implemented it is absolutely terrible.

If you paid for your meal, and then where able to eat/drink as much as before then I think most of the arguments would dissappear. The problem is that the contractors have taken PAYD to mean every constituent part of the meal, ie each rasher of bacon/sausage/glass of OJ for breakfast, as a chargable item. With smaller portions being served you need to add extra items at 7 or 8p a shot to make the meal what it used to be. That seems small, but quickly builds up over time and means an increase in what we spend (if we use the mess for every meal).

If its just treated as a restaurant then the system works great, but isnt the mess meant to be home and not a hotel?

After a nice stay at RAF Halton recently, PAYD has already eroded all mess atmosphere that was left. All people do is moan about it. In principle PAYD is a good idea, but the grey areas don't seem to have been looked at. I agree with some of the posts here that Summer Balls etc.. will have to find money from other sources. As for the big Stns, Brize Norton and the majority of RAF bases have had PAYD for lunch for years. There was no problem. I have heard (correct me if I am wrong) but total PAYD at Brize has been looked at, but shelved, as the company wanted to run the bars as well. This obviously meant all Sqn bars would have to close!! Yeah right, they wound just go under ground. In the end I hope PAYD falls flat on its Ar$e, as a liver in, I like the atmosphere at the mo, I believe total PAYD would destroy that!!! :{ :{ :ok:

From what I saw during recent visits to other messes, PAYD varies in its implementation.

PAYD is fine in principle, and might be OK for mess members if it applied only to the dining, but in some places it is actually being implemented as 'Pay As You Mess'. It is not self-financing, so the bean counters are having to offer other mess services as potential 'cash cows' to make the tender process attractive (or even possible). I am, in particular, referring to the Bar being handed over to the likes of Eurest and SerCo, and the ability to charge whatever they like for Dinner Nights (staff gratuities?).

How long before cleaning becomes an added extra?

STH

At the risk of travelling old ground, PAYD was introduced at Luqa in 1974. You paid for everything, pat of butter, slice of bread etc but only at lunch. This then set the pattern that has existed in in all the RAF messes that I have visited since. Breakfast and Dinner are within the daily 'core' menu and lunch is at cost. True the livers-in still pay for the Friday night and Saturday/Sunday core that they do not eat.

But where confusion arises is the use of the phrase PAYD.

What we had from 1974 was OLD PAYD. What we have now is NEW PAYD. The two are chalk and cheese.

What we wanted was OLD PAYD where, as a liver-in, you did not pay for the 5 weekend meals that you might miss.

NEW PAYD is an entirely different beast. NEW PAYD is a Private Finance Initiative to provide bars, coffee shops, airmen's clubs, canteens, messing etc all within a capped profit margin.

This is then delivered not per unit but per group of units. The contractors are thus asked to bid for a group of units for the next N years and the liklihood that some of them will close in the next year or two or their populations will change drastically.

The reason for the hold is simply that no contractor would bid for a contract involving, say Leeming, when we do not know the future of RAF Leeming in the RAF ORBAT.

So remember NEW PAYD has b*gg*r all to do with allowing the squaddie not to pay for meals he does not eat and is everything to do with allowing the contractor to run coffee bars, feeders, etc.

Why not go the US route and let B*gg*r K*ng run a fast-food joint? Why not run a system, again US, where the core facility serves 'tea' from 5-6 but is then let to another group to run from say 7-10. The latter could serve food that people want when they want it and employ 'self-help' staff.

One problem of course is the minimum wage and income tax which would stop moonlighting at low wages.

Gents

A while ago (Mar/Apr 04? IIRC) there was a long topic on PAYD, which discussed at length the pros and cons. At the time many of the contractors bidding for PAYD were beginning to realise that there was not enough profit to be had from the catering only side (our infrastructure in many cases is too old and the companies have to spend loads to get the kitchens etc up to scratch before they can even start selling food). Henlow and Leuchars were up and running and living-in members were voting with their feet. I believe it took Henlow over 18 months before it returned a profit – not exactly likely to keep the shareholders happy!?! Ask anyone who lives in or who has visited what he or she thinks of the standards of food!! Is this because they have had to cut quality and quantity to make a profit? The contractors started to realise that one of the ways of making a profit was by taking over all bars on station and any rival catering outlets.

With the bars (and remember this may include Sqn bars and possibly even flt / sqn / regt tea bars, anywhere that there is “competition”) the contractor sees the opportunity of boosting the meagre, and reducing? profits from the catering. The plan would be for the contractor to set prices and then split the profits 4 ways (depending upon the number of messes on base) - one unit for the contractor, one unit for the O's Mess, one unit for the SNCO's Mess, one unit for the Junior Rank's Mess, and one unit for the contractor. Therefore if you live on a base with a disproportionate number of members in one particular mess the most profitable will be subsiding the least profitable and all will be subsidising the contractor and his shareholders!! :mad: Bar profits will need to go up (for the contractor to make his share of the profit, and it may not be a small increase!). Bar usage will probably decline because one of the benefits of “our Mess” is we set the profits, so we can keep the profits as low, or as high, as we want. Want an example? Cost price of a barrel of beer is about £55 – 60 + VAT depending upon supplier, 88 pints to a barrel, selling price in the Mess bar £1 to £1.50 depending upon GPP, selling price on the high street £2 – 3 per pint depending upon location. Reduced bar profits due to reduced usage equals less subsidy to other functions (remember we actually get some of our profit back). Profits will also be split amongst the other messes so the chances of your particular mess subsiding functions, such as a Summer Ball, will also be reduced. Therefore Mess functions become more expensive and yet another nail goes into the coffin! Now we have lost our dining rooms, our bars become less attractive and our functions get more expensive – great, a step forward! Remember as well if you put on a ‘leaving barrel’ or a promotion barrel your Sqn will probably charge you cost price, but if you HAVE to buy that through the PAYD Contractor you will be paying commercial rates! Another nail in the coffin of service life?

Sadly for all those young livers-in who always complain about paying for meals they do not take (I am guilty I was one of those young livers-in once) the way forward has been for PAYD (or Save As You Starve). Unfortunately the ultimate consequences HAVE NOT BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH!

This will be the death of Messes yet another bit of Service Ethos (which our Airships, Generalships and Admiralships bang on about but never actually protect) will be destroyed probably never to return. I understand that the PAYD roll-out has been stopped in HMFC, so it is not too late, but don’t hold your breath. And to those who say they would rather go out and eat a curry, or a kebab, that is of course great if you happen to be stationed in an area close to a large town or civilisation. The cost of doing that every night will soon add up to a lot more than the 7-days a week food charge! If you want to eat in fast-food restaurant every night of the week, then I suggest you watch the TV programme “Super-size me”. I for one do not!

How very true - but sadly that's a reoccurring theme these days.

Whether it's the rush towards new catering, new pensions, rationalisation, re-organisation or even PPP/PFI deals for the provision of military capability or training, the full impact of decisions just does not seem to be grasped or understood!

What's worse is that we seem to be pushed into some of these decisions as a result of earlier decisions that had not been thought through either. It's like a very big snowball that's rolling down the hill and getting bigger and faster by the minute! But fortunately, when they see it coming towards them, most very senior officers standing at the bottom of the hill seem to be able to step aside at the last minute.

To add to all the woe regarding PAYD:(

The Charity Commission is reviewing all organisations that claim charitable status - I believe that RAF Units and Messes received some benefit from this. Not being a :mad: bean-counter, I nevertheless believe that this will impinge with yet more financial penalties on the Messes and their inmates.

I sincerely hope that I'm wrong ... perhaps there's someone who might put the record straight.

I have heard horror stories from one unit where PAYD has been introduced - apparently communal kitchenettes and similar cooking facilities have been removed at the behest of the contractor, and moves are afoot to ban livers-in from having microwaves in their rooms. If true, this is nothing short of an abuse, although I must say I'm not entirely surprised. It's not the first time the heirarchy have sold us down the river to cover up an abject f**k-up.

My advice - should this not be stopped in its tracks as it should be - would be a complete boycott of ANYTHING run by these contractors. They will probably get away with destroying our long traditional methods of dining, since there are always other options and they will soon get the message when the dining rooms of messes up and down the country empty out.

HOWEVER - a word of warning to anybody involved in administering this fiasco- If you attempt to f**k with Sqn bars, YOU WILL HAVE A !!!!!STORM ON YOUR HANDS.

Having said that, they can always go underground and be stocked with duty free, or by other commercial methods.

Remember, contractors, your profits will be in our hands. WE are your ONLY customers - its not as if you can put signs up outside camp and attract more in. Piss us off, and you will be out of business. If you raise bar prices, we will simply bring our own booze into the bar from other sources and drink it under your noses, and there will be NOTHING you can do about it - it is NOT a pub that you can run as you see fit, it is OUR bar, regardless of who runs it - it belongs to the mess members, and always will.

Think about that before you bid for contracts.

16B

Normally I take anything 16B says with a pinch of salt (£0.03 plus VAT at a contractor run Mess near you), however, on this occasion he is absolutely right!

The last time I 'existed' (I hesitate to say 'lived') in an Officers' Mess was 1984. I used to get annoyed about paying extra messing for meals I didn't eat; for example, have breakfast on Monday, luncheon on Tuesday and dinner on Wednesday and you paid 3 days' extra messing. Have all the meals on just 1 day and you paid only 1 day's extra messing.

Then there was a breakfast at RAF Wattisham which I well remember a couple of years earlier. The Stn PEdO was attacking a quivering mound of dead pig and egg with all the extras. Cost to him, being a beanstealer? Nothing. Sat next to him was a delightfully petite Air Traffickerette who was nibbling a piece of toast. Cost to her? A full day's messing plus extra messing. What utter bolleaux!

The problem is entirely down to the creeping cancer of contractorisation and lack of firm direction. They should be booted firmly up their corporate jacksies and TOLD what to provide!

Not my problem any more as mere civilian filth. But if I had to suffer such nonsense, I'd walk into the dining room and pick up a plate and some cutlery, then set up my barbi' on the grass in front of the mess. When I'd finished, I'd dump the dirty crockery and cutlery on a dining room table for the thieving contractor to wash up. (If it was raining, then I'd use an electric wok in the dining room instead of the barbi')..

Which utter f***wit allowed 'pay as you dine' to be implemented in such a ridiculous way?

Beagle the utter f**kwits who implemented the scheme were members of the GD Branch - I know, I was at MOD at the time. So please, no more talk about blunties and beancounters!

But to be fair - MOD were telling people (via the AMPLT tours) that it would bite everyone on the bum if it were introduced but there were too many people out there who couldn't see beyond their nibbled piece of toast to see the big picture. Ergo, the decision makers caved in to the popular vote. Ah well, that's democracy for you.

This all seems to be similar to the "thin tie" debacle. Ties used to be of a reasonable width and then came the civvy fashion for thin ties. AMPLT teams were beseiged with moans about the width of ties and after a few years eventually the width of ties were changed to a thinner version. Yep, you've guessed it. By the time that contracts were let and the ties introduced into clothing stores the fashion had come around full circle and wider ties were now being called for.

Allan907 you are right but the fact remains that Beags is too.

What we wanted was NOT to pay for what we did not get.

What they are getting is the right to PAY for everything inside the wire at outside prices.

I was in a MOD canteen the other day. Only reason it ran out of food was the London bombing that advised people to stay in the building. The food was c**p but cheaper than outside.

What PAYD will provide is either cheap c**p or expensive outside quality and prices. As the profit is limited by contract you can guess which will be top dog. (Beef too expensive).

BTW, the cas allowance for food for a police dog is about 3 times the allowance for the handler.

For those who are lucky enough not to have experienced PAYD, here's what it's like in the Wardroom. It's just like a Litte Chef or Motorway Services Cafe. You walk through the servery and choose what you'd like to eat. At the far end there's a lady sat at a till who checks what you've chosen (toast / no toast etc), types it into the till and you pay her cash (or swipe card). The ethos of the people who work here is the same as in a Motorway Cafe. No pride in the establishment what-so-ever, it's just a cheap cafe to them. I'm looking forward to being back on board to enjoy service by peope who care/understand service ethos and every penny isn't counted.

With my age and financial state I have a good few years of living in to do before I buy the first Speed Estate.

I would much rather pay a regular mess charge to retain the mess atmosphere and quality of service than only be charged for the service that I use, if it means sacrificing the quality of the service.

I think there is one recurring theme coming out in this thread… We need a happy medium. Mr Beags hit the nail on the head – as long as the service is being contracted out to a profit making organisation, we are not going to find that happy medium. :(

NFS

PAYD
 

Gents, for once I am not slagging off the officer corps. However from the tone of the posts here most of you are from the commisioned class. Let me assure you if you think you have it bad in your dining room's check out the lad's. Just returned from Halton where the WO & Sgts dining room resembles a "Happy Eater" complete with tills. As a "phase 3" trainee I was entitled to the core menu FOC. However by the time the food police had served me it was hardly worth the wait! I am not a big eater at the moment due to a training regime but I had to bring loads of fruit from home as it is not on the core menu. The JNCO's on our course were treated like children in the mess and to cap it all, although they were in one of the new super blocks, the kitchens were locked! How's that for choice. Peg's burger van is still there but now she works for ESS (however she hasn't put her prices up Hoorah!) and the "butty van" is also run by ESS, wheres the choice! The problem is, the PAYD as we have it now is not what people wanted, they wanted money back for not eating. So why not put in leave passes as "not required for duty" at weekends and let PSF (or JPA) work out how much you get back. Bottom line, no one sat the whingers down and pointed out the reason they were fed so well (when they were there) was because not everyone went to every meal, therefore the chefs were able to use their £2.50 (ish) a day to give an excellent service for the money. If you want to see the proof go the Brize Nortons airmens mess, as I did recently, and see the superb service and excellent food the service caterers give.

IMHO the fundamental issue is that the MOD has a responsibility to ensure that it's "troops" are fed correctly. Just the same as they provide Medical and Dental cover, nutrition is just as important if not more. If airman/soldiers/sailors are not eating correctly then they cannot possibly be at their fighting peak. Our men and women should not have the choice of not eating/eating cr@p. One of the worst things I have seen is women living on Pot Noodle and Irn Bru. Then we wonder why our people are de-motivated and have no energy.

I freely admit that a well run organisation can have a superb facility but Jack/Percy/Cyril will always rather spend his/her cash on beer instead. Take the money at source and they have less option.

Quite possibly a simplistic view (sometimes the best view I find..) I eat in the mess maybe twice a month and settle up on my mess bill at the end of the month. It takes 1 maybe 2 mess clerks to sort out the bills each month, why not the same for the Junior Ranks?
I spent time on a course about 6 months ago with a Catering Clerk (I thought they'd all gone, but there you go) involved in PAYD. He said the concept was good, but it was failing at implementation - and that’s coming form someone who's job it is to get it working!!.

Someone who wears alot of scrambled egg should start to think about getting Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsey in to sort this mess out. :D

Quote:
Someone who wears alot of scrambled egg should start to think about getting Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsey in to sort this mess out.


I think someone has. Over the last month at the RAF's premier rotary base, Celeb chefs have been providing reciepies for the A'la carte menu.

Last week Gordon Ramsey was the celeb. I must congratulate the mess staff on replicating his signature dish, 'Chicken F**king Tikka'. It was very nice. :ok:
Strangely, this week Jamie Oliver is providing the menu!!

Is this for real? Is it for some kind of TV show?

So does the RAF's premier rotary base have RAF Slop Jockies in all of its messes or is it contractorised?
Personally, I've always found our Slop Jockies provide a better menu than A.N Contractor.

PAYD is a waste of time...
 

Some people on this topic have pointed out that PAYD was what we, the consumers, requested.

This is to some extent true. Those people at bases/units where the catering became private and dispensed with service chefs are the ones who have requested it.

This is because the civilian companies who took over tried to provide the cheapest service they could get away with and as a result the quality of food and standard of food preparation dropped immensely. Therefore people stop eating and resent paying for poor food that they only eat occasionally.

However, if you go to units where you still find service chefs you will find a completely opposing view. I don't know if anyone's eaten at Kinloss recently but the food is out of this world!

I personally believe that people are prepared to pay...providing the food is worth paying for...I would even pay more here at my unit if it meant we returned to a Service catered mess and the food was raised to Kinloss standard!

I leave you with a little known fact...a large percentage of the money we contribute to our food charges per month actually goes on feeding those on OOA detachments. This is one of the main reasons why PAYD has been suspended as they do not know where they will get the money to feed those out of area...that and the fact that the system doesn't bl00dy work! Now I don't know what the rest of you think but if the government want us to go to war that's one thing...but paying for it as well?...I think that's a bit much!

Feeding the military should be done by the military, for the military as it always traditionally was done. All living-in personnel should be fed by military cooks using the unit's own allocated ration allowance. There is a reason why the military were always provided with rations out of the military budget and that reason has never changed.

An army still marches on its stomach.

Stax mentions Halton. I was there not long ago for a reunion. We were treated to a snack in what we knew as No.2 Wing Apprentices Mess and were amazed to find it looked and smelled exactly as it did all those years ago. The officers mess has on the other hand, deteriorated considerably. Its just a crumbling old ruin today. The once beautiful and atmospheric dining room is a shambles and the bar simply isn't fit to drink in. A 'Happy Eater' would perhaps, be something of an improvment.

Adding to Plans123, a large Typhoon base somewhere in eastern England also serves superb food. They just put out a bulletin saying the the large Tornado Interceptor base also has PAYD problems and that the whole issue is back in the melting pot to consider decoupling messing (mandatory) from leisure (optional).

What I said earlier about OPAYD (people want) and NPAYD (that people wanted because they thought it was OPAYD)