lynehamwife, I apologise for the mickey take, childish etc, I am more than aware of the lack of time available to work never mind sleep whilst on shift.

I can remember one horrible day, very strong, cold winds and lots of rain, when I had just one available towing team to sort the aircraft out, they guys didn't whinge, were out constantly for over six hours and were wringing wet when they finally got back in.

The eng guys are unable to have a work to rule, to follow the instructions to the letter, because proffesional pride is their biggest enemy. If it takes 6 guys a shift to get a Herc serviceable, and one guy is lumbered for gate guard etc, then 5 guys will do the job and get the aircraft out on time. The Bean counters see this, and say that 5 men are obviously enough, and chop 1. Next time the bean counters look, some other bod is stuffed for guard and 4 men are now doing the work of 6, Ah! thay say, this job only needs 4 men and away goes another. And no matter what the circumstances are, the aircraft get generated.

As aircrew may now jump in and say "This or that was missed, or not done properly" there is no excuse in the real world, but the world is no longer real, it is fashioned by Messrs B-Liar, Brown and Buff Hoon, but at least the aircraft departs within the allotted time.

For the work we have to do, we need more MEN not Network connected computers, but we have no chance of that.

For the guys on shift in this cold time of year, Thanks guys for a job well done. I hope the HLS gets sorted SOON.

ZH875,

Good follow-up, I think you saved yourself from a bit of a flaming there.

Your line about a work to rule is, I believe, basically true. However, together with that, we're all fully aware that if a WtR in fact happened, anybody who made even the slightest, genuine, mistake, would invariably be professionally hung, drawn and quartered to bring the rest of the troops into line.

Quite frankly I'm glad I'm not part of the awful smell that seems to be emanating from Lyneham Eng Wg - although I fully expect to face the same upheaval at my unit. I empathise with Maintainers' thoughts, but for me they're tempered with the thought that OC Eng is top of the tree and as such is there to be shot at, a la OCA, OC Ops and CO's, if they're not perceived to be listening to the concerns of the troops on the ground. That's why they do the jobs they do - if they can't take full-bore criticism or at least answer it, don't take that sort of appointment.

Most of our fliers will already know this, but if your aircraft is delayed, it's because your techies aren't happy with it, not because they want to play games. It only takes one major screw-up in your unit to breach your trust in us, and once that's gone it's v.difficult to get it back, so we'd rather you were late. It won't get any better no matter what scheme someone dreams up, as we can all only do one job at a time, even if we're multi-skilled!

24/30/47/70, please bear with your techies, it's not their fault, make your noises at the CO in the mess. And remember what Lynehamwife told you about her husband.

LW, some good advice was proffered by PTG, worth acting on. And feel free to post here any time you like.:ok:

Merry Cristmas everyone, and I'll have one tonight for all of you who are away from your families.

What price all the work on Human Factors, teambuilding etc. etc. which has been driven from CAS?

Will we get ever get the correct response from our glorious leaders to changes like this...not a chance..why ?..cos they are all yes men/women.CO's,Sqn bosses etc have only their best interests at heart.Be honest ..when was the last time you heard of a CO/OC resigning due to a matter of principle...never!Lyneham will disappear up its own arsene wenger before they make a stand.

Vote with your feet...

quote "Vote with your feet"

I did - and I can't recommend it enough! Also, I see my family more and sleep much better now that I have left Rompers Green!

However, while the grass is a different shade of green on the outside, I don't hear such levels of disquiet from the engineers this side of the fence as there is at Lyneham.

Besides, I thought the J/K Lines had worked pretty damn well since their inception, so why mess with them? I have always had a great admiration of the engineers but I thought that the increased integration via the 24/30 and 47/LXX Lines certainly helped to break down some of the more traditional aircrew/groundcrew barriers - despite constant OOA ops over the last 5 years. Regrettably, the new change is so obviously driven by Treasury-enforced budget cuts. It is NOT about 'improved efficiency' as DefSec and CDS keep wittering on about. Do they really think we are so daft as to believe their spin?

My advice to all who believe flight safety is being compromised - be it working hours, working practices, Resource Management, lack of communication, poor morale or just plain lack of trust/involvement (perhaps even all of the above) - THEN PUT IT IN WRITING -
Try a Human Factors Report or a Murphy/Condor with the SFSO (a most decent chap) as well as a letter to your own chain of command (JENGO/OC ENG/SQN BOSS/STN CDR). If enough of you do it, then who knows?

If you really believe something is awry, then you should do all you can in your sphere of influence flag it up with, clear unambiguous FACTS.

If the 'what ifs' constantly point to a major incident/accident in the offing, then you have little choice but to go to print - at least then you may sleep a little more easily at night but you can also look yourself in the mirror in the morning.

Overall, however, I agree that the cuts have been imposed from on high - but involving your direct superiors will allow them to show their true colours to those at the workface one way or another.

Best of Luck

I too remember " t' good owld dayz" of centralised servicing on the Vulcans of No.1 Group. At the end of day shift at Waddington one Friday, they rounded up a weary Sergeant, Corporal, two J/Ts and an SAC as we were boarding the bus at Line Serving Squadron and sent us off to 44(R) Sqn crew room. No explanation was given. We arrived in our usual filthy condition, dressed in the rags that passed for cold-weather clothing (you had to be a Storekeeper to get brand new issue) to find (to our delight - free beer indeed!) that we were representing "Engineering" at a beer-up in celebration of the squadron's victory in that year's bombing competition. One of the Flight Commanders deigned to engage Junior Magician Blacksheep in conversation and was astounded when I told him that we had no idea that there had in fact been a bombing competition. We had noticed a slight increase in the flying activity but no-one had bothered to tell us why. Also, when we sent off an aircraft we had no idea what squadron the crew belonged to either. All aircrew were one and the same to us. I've often wondered if that conversation between a smart Squadron Leader and a very dirty, dishevelled but tradesmanlike J/T had anything to do with the end of centralised servicing shortly afterwards.

Squadron spirit and pride in achievement is no accident.

What's up are some of the people at Lyneham having to give up their second job due to the changes to the shift patterns?:oh:

LynehamWife - Do not apoogise as you are in the wonderful position of being able to tell it how it is (without some snotty 22 yr old having a go in six months time when it comes to 6000-time). Flip, nice thoughts, I know it got you in trouble when you wore HM's growbag, but still good advice! What a shame that those of us who do actually stand up and get counted on matters of principle (ie refusing to task 'K' hercs into AFG in daylight) are labelled as trouble makers, to be told in no uncertain terms that we will never see S/L. Oh well, bugger it, as my 1st OC Ops told me, better to be a scraggly old Flt Lt with the respect of those who work for you (the SNCOs, crews who do the flying, the TG9 Ops types etc etc etc), than a Wg Cdr or groupy who is hated.

Seems like you've got the same problem as the Army. Breaking up the Regimental system never improved the fighting efficiency of the Army. What it probably does do is reduce the headcount in some way. As we aircrew know if you have a scheme to reduce headcount you are well on the way to appearing on end of year medal lists and lead in promotion stakes.

Bitter - yes please mine's a pint.

LB

I think the point is being missed completely by al those that have posted on this issue. Yes, the Herc fleet has always been ‘centralised’, with the groundcrew being separate from the aircrew. Even when the two Groundcrew sqns, 24/30 eng and 47/70 eng, were formed when the J’s were fully manned in March 2001, it was never a true sqn feeling that is usually associated with the fast jet world.
The real reason behind the gripes is the change to our working environment.
The way we worked when we were two fleets, and both fleets worked the same system, is that in charge of the overall work carried out on the shift would be a Rectification controller. He would liase with the trade managers at the start of the shift as to the priorities to be worked, with regards to the flying programme, and any other ‘dead’ aircraft to be worked. The trade manager would then organise his troops to get the work done, with the trade manager themselves liase with the other trade managers so everybody would not be working the same aircraft at once. The TM’s themselves would also make sure that any ‘hot gen’ would be passed down to the troops and passed along to the other shifts. This system is very efficient at getting work done and also has the added benefit that when the guys & girls came in from one job, if the TM wasn’t around, they could quite easily look down the diary and get on with the outstanding jobs. This also had the added benefit at assessment time to comment on the troops leadership, common sense, blah, blah.
Manpower wise this method worked well when even stretched to the bone. A SNCO could get a flying programme of 6 aircraft servicable and get his trade diary clear in a night with only 3-4 others, it was a hard nights work but it was achievable.
So as far as SNCO manpower goes, there were two in Rect’s control, and on a good shift maybe 1 of each trade, possibly 2 sooties or riggers. That adds up to 6-7 SNCO’s on a good shift and in the 3 ½ years that J line was running this system, we never delayed an aircraft because of ‘lack of manpower’, and I am pretty sure that the rest of the RAF that uses this system has always managed to get the flying programme sorted, with delays due to lack of spares or crew outs.
Right, lets take this system, and without any consultation with the SNCO’s, Flt Sgt’s or wobblys, turn it on its head and make everyone miserable and demoralised!!!!
The system now is that that 1 SNCO is given an aircraft to run with whilst on shift (12 hours) in that time he is to be tasked by the Rect’s controller (1 x C/T), get manpower from the Manpower controller (1xC/T), and whilst he is out in his ‘trailer’, he is overseen by a line walker (1xC/T). The SNCO with the aircraft now has to ‘compete’ for manpower,(which by the way has now been reduced by a third) to get aircraft ready. Also when the book is handed to the SNCO there are the outstanding jobs that still need to be done from the last time it landed. There are lots of things wrong with this system, far too many and complex to go into here, but needless to say this system throws up more questions that any seniority has answers for, so how are you supposed to believe in an idea and sell it to those under you if the people in charge, you know who you are, do not believe in it.
Please don’t get me wrong, it is good to see a bit of change now and again, but when it all goes to rats droppings can someone please stand up and be counted!!!
I have never in all my RAF days seen a decision that has had such a dramatic effect on the morale and effectiveness of guys on the shop floor and as one or two people have mentioned, I too think it will take something drastic to highlight things to people outside Lyneham.
Please leave the fixing of aircraft to the aircraft fixers and the c**p management to the c**p managers!!!!

Yes but is the new system "lean"?

Course it's lean, I'm sure one third less manpower was mentioned above. But will that be lean enough? More Techie redundancies inbound!:(

Spankedcat

That new system sounds awful, I spent many happy years working the old system and it worked well.

The point is that no matter how much engineers complain, nothing will change however, if assets are not ready on time, questions be asked by Ops and Aircrew, only then will the situation be looked into.

Not suggesting anything along the lines of "work to rule" etc, such childish acts will do nothing to help, but if you are rushing around trying to make this system work, think safety, and stop rushing - no system is worth an accident.

It may go against the grain - as every engineer wants to make the programme, but if morale is as bad as indicated on this thread, it will not be long before it effects your work. As the end user the aircrew will understand your predicament.

I left the RAF last year (fed up with PC tree huggers and poor management), civvy street has a better system, they give you the aircraft and the following days schedule, its up the engineers on the ground to sort it out (within CAA regulations of course).

The "engineers on the ground" in this case being the people who actually service the aircraft, not a OC Eng/SEngO/JEngO with no hands on experience and little idea of time and manpower requirements to rectify a given snag.

That's not a pop at SEngO or JEngO's in general, I have worked with some great ones, but they were the ones who supported the people under them and who did not make wholesale changes to a system that worked well before leaving the mess they created 18 months/2 years later (tweaks=OK, wholesale changes=bad).

In the short term - smile, things will get better. There's little point in being bitter about all this and you guys need to stick together. Common sense will prevail, as in time either the management will change the system or the system will change the management.

Good Luck!

"...if assets are not ready on time...."

Rarely a problem in the days when the sqn on which I served had its own loyal groundies - but almost invariably the case after the abysmal centralised servicing was forced upon the fleet. Very rarely did any AT flight leave on time thereafter....and if the RAF was an airline it would have probably had its Air Operator's Certificate withdrawn with such dispatch unreliability.

Team needs. Remember those, O Great Leaders?

A lineys View
 

Where has all the moral gone?!

I have just finished my first shift on HLS, and boy do i wish i hadnt started!
I was fortunate(?) enough to be on guard over xmas and missed the start of the new lean HLS. I thought you may like a Lineys before and after view.

My last shift in Nov on A line was good, lots of happy techies doing what they love, fixing a/c. We had good comardary, morale tho not sky high was at a happy level, comms was good with everyone knowing were we where in the 'big picture' and most importantly our 'customers' were getting what they wanted.

Now to the this shift. I walked in the crew room first morning back to see not a smile or happy face. The atmosfere was darker than a mourge. I went over to control to find out the program only to be ushered out because of no sgt or c/t stripes on my arm! When I asked what work/program was going to be like the answer was "You dont need to know!"
It appears that now the only way we find out when work is needed to be done is when our team laeder finds us and tells us what to do. Gone are the trade desk diarys, the tombs of so much history, information and jobs. This now means that jobs are being forgotten about and missed. I have even heard that a/c have been flying without valid servicings! When things like that get missed something very wrong is going on!
Comms seems to have broken down completly, yesterday an a/c landed at 11am its second sortie was cancelled and this was only found out 6pm. 5 hours after it should have departed on its next trip!
We used to have a big board 20ft wide by 8ft tall with every a/c on it so EVERYONE could see what was were and what needed doing. Everything from servicings to battery changes.
Now this is all within the first month, people are losing what little is left of there moral, and a few are starting not to even care.
Sod all the lean be more flexable crap, when people start to not even care about there work the accidents will happen. People I know that used to work 7 till 7 without break or complaint, proud of the work they did are being slowly broken and worn down. I dont know about others but I am scared of what will come.

Sorry for length but I needed to say this. Remember this is after ONE MONTH, just think what it will be like when the remaining few have been broken down.:( :sad:

This is becoming scary. Have you tried raising your concerns with the chain of command or SFSO or QAC?

Big picture....mumble, mumble....Management Initiative....mumble, mumble....leaner and keener....mumble, mumble....in-depth scoping survey....mumble, mumble...."I hear what you say".....

And lo, the porkers did merrily flap their wings. For as the result of such foolhardiness, verily they were the only bloody things left at Lyneham still capable of flight bar the flying club aircraft.

More problems caused by (mis)Management, but no doubt OC Eng will get promoted out of this.

Rumour control has it that she's been extended. Maybe someone wants her to rectify her own mess for a change...

apparently she has been extended by 18 months.......

playing the 'work to rule' ticket to get the system changed won't work because:-
A. nobody has got a clue about what work is required..
B. the system will implode on itself soon anyway (hopefully)

To try and understand our predicament put yourself in the shoes of a big boss of a company and suddenly his PA has been taken away... now you know that there is lots of work to be done, but nobody is telling you where to start or where to go, that is how everybody feels, from the F/S's down to the SAC's. It goes completely against everything that we are taught, from basic training through to GST, and I dont mean the 'can do' attitude either, that if there is something to be done, crack on and do it to the best of your ability.
The only thing that I can resign myself to is that hopefully the system will change back to something that it was in the first place and then everybody will have to try and get motivated again!!!!

and as for lean.......there isnt a smiley for arse!!!

Don't mean to be pedantic but....

Morale (low) is for the groundcrew

Morals (very low) is for the aircrew


Carry on everyone.

Be advised that the grown ups are now aware of this thread, so be careful with the insults. (But maybe some good will come out of it)

My advice is to keep your comments short, sweet and straight to the point as officers have a short concentration span.

I know for a fact that there is a Sgt in the RAF Directorate of Corporate Communications whose daily chores include viewing these pages.

Good morning, Sgt PPRuNe!

Come on Sgt, you need to let us know who you are! Are you Mike Hegland.

Do we have to submit a FOI request to get the information?

I believe I was the first to mention 'Work to Rule' on this thread. Perhaps a poor choice of words, as subsequently someone has called it childish. What I meant was the practice of cutting corners.


So, we discover that an aircraft has gone flying without a valid 'Before Flight Servicing'

Do we raise a Murphy report, or at least come clean, to ensure it doesn't happen again?

Or do we cover it up? And then it happens again!......and a third time!!


Wallowing around in a cesspit of our own making.

Of course you cover it up!! the Farce is only interested in getting the job done at whatever cost. As the number of different down sizes gather pace the only way to get more jobs done with less people is to cut corners. Fact of life?

To be fair it is the same ethos out here in civy street. Most companies have a strong desire to do more with less BUT we have laws out here to protect us. One such example of many I could list, are the Health and Safety at work rules which allow staff to walk off the job if they observe unsafe practices.

You lot of course, have no such protection either in law or management!!

:ok:

Gorilla - the Crown lost it's imunity quite some time ago. If H&S are being broken it is the same as outside - we're not dropping bombs therefore it is peacetime.
I do hope that my Eng bretheren can see their way through all of this down at Lyneham. Just glad to be an interested stacker observing from afar.

........So is it true that the new nickname for this whole system is JAKASS ( 'J' And 'K' Aircraft Support Squadron)? If so, at least it beats the FART vans that were running around the dispersal!:E


(Edited to include the following)

And another thing! What is going to happen when the J's move to BZN in 2008 and the K's live till Lyneham's closure in 2012...?

It will still be known as HLS and any manpower will be bussed backwards and forwards as necessary. :=

for those who can...JSP 375, Vol 2, Lft 25....stress inducers at work, last page......where are we? HLS, RAF Lyneham!

Can anybody help us???

Go to a secret Oxon base....the new boss is about to remalgamate the VC10 aircrew and groundies in a single unit

Best decision for years :ok:

Best Boss for years...........

At least 5!:ok: :ok:

Make that 10.....

I have never seen so many P _ _ _ed off ground crew. They know how to make it work better but she who must be obeyed won't let them. Perhaps she needs to listen to them and not fob them off.

The latest rumor, at ground level, is that she who implements change has got her promotion and has been extended @ Lyneham untill the post she is going to fill becomes vacant.

Remember change is inevitable (except from a vending machine). The changes at Lynenam are driven by LEAN and a need to reduce manpower across Eng Wing by 130 to pay for the ‘A Brief History of the RAF’ AP issued to everyone in the RAF. The changes at Lyneham were enforced with very little input from the SNCOs, thereby discarding 100s of, if not 1000s of, years experiences. Anyone voicing any doubts about the new system is accused of fear of change. The changes at HLS are not working, are unsafe and hugely unpopular. The line is working as best they can to make a bad system work but the basic problem is the system is unworkable, without tradedesks there is no focus. The JNCOs and airmen/women have a lack of clear direction and the Sgts spend all day with their head buried in a F700 while the Chief Tech Work Controllers are under utilised and have no control what is happening around them. The AP 3003 is full of tales of esprit de corps and leadership; at Lyneham HLS the former has been ground into the mud and there is a total lack of the later. However much the groundcrew moan, nothing will change until the aircrew complain about it. It must say something about a system when SNCOs with over 20 years service are clearly stating that they simply dread coming into work and people are happier going to Basra to get away from HLS. It would be interesting for our flying ‘customers’ to express their views on here what they think of the new system. The message that will go up from Lyneham to STC is that this new system is great and will be imposed elsewhere. :{

Change may be inevitable but, is it not best implemented after those in the know are consulted first & their oppinions considered. That way surely any change would then stand a better chance of working.:confused:

take it from a line engineer, if you want more work done give us back our trade managers and trade diary so we can utilise our time and accomplish more, thus getting more planes in the air!!!

Sabotage!
 

Heres a new one for you all!

Just heard that O/C eng has said the F/S C/T Sgt ect are SABOTAGING the new system so thats why its not working well at the mo!!

Laff I nearly fixed an aircraft! :D :ok: :E

How can this be so?

According to the figures published by O/C Eng, on her thankyou letter to the line (if all you aircrew haven't seen it then look on the notice board outside the HLS crewroom), 100% tasking has been met almost all the time (K&J). A bit of creative number juggling has been going on I think.:suspect:

Ahhh, another shift over and now I can sleep again. Mondays programme was met, mainly due to the fact that there was no flying over the w/end and everthing was worked over sat/sun. Can those that can check out the ADDER stats for this time last year, when we were a LOT busier, to Jan this year.

From the horses mouth (!!) : "I am not extended, I am due to be posted in August". So dont worry, there is light at the end of the tunnel, or will it be another train coming down the line!!!!

By the way, three more tool LACs/paperwork screw ups over the weekend, but apparently there are no FS concerns with this new system!!!!!

God help us when the first overworked, undermanned, exhausted crew mix up the K specific and J specific oil - OM15 and OM17 is it?

Remember - if no one actually can go flying then its not a flight saftety problem!