MRH-90 crash Australia
 

MRH-90 down in northern Queensland. 4 crew missing. Was participating in Talisman Sabre.

With the crash only a few months ago and blackhawks incoming expect a permanent grounding of these aircraft will be initiated

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-...days/102663620

Sad news as always.

The MRH-90 has had it's shares of issues, and has been considered a program of concern for some time, much of which relates to the OEM more than the helicopter itself. The engines have been involved in a number of incidents, according to public domain information. Night 2-ship overwater at anything near low level comes with it's own risks. The incidents that have been reported to date for the NH-90 really don't show a specific area of repetitive causation, most are related to operational risk issues that affect all helicopters equally.
The guys flying these things, like all helo pilots, operate in a demanding and unforgiving environment particularly at night.

Sad to hear of another ditching with this type, especially at night. Whilst the waters are warm in that area the tides are very strong.
As ex army aviation I'm still hoping for the best for the crew.

it was flying in formation with another when it when in. Other aircraft immediately started SAR, unless a miracle happens the crew went down with the aircraft

Not wishing to get pedantic with the media reporting, which can be woeful at best, but don’t the army fly the NH90 and the navy fly the MRH90? Or is that my mistake?

In Australian service they are the MRH-90. Navy ceased flying the MRH90 a short while ago also.

Because they are the exact same aircraft. You will regularly see navy pilots getting out aircraft with army written on the. The aircraft are pooled, it could based in townsville with the army. Go into maintainence and then come out a be given to the navy to fly

Sad event and I do hope that the crew are found.

Rattman, I truly wish I had your insight and knowledge to draw parallels between 2 separate accidents, before both have been fully examined. Permanent grounding would seem a big call to those who don’t have the same incredible crash investigation conduct and completion ability as yourself. I do hope that you share your report with both the ADF and the ATSB.

Dont have to be a patronising asshole. The first of the blackhawks will be delivered this year why bother trying to keep flying something that is already on its way out. Why continue to fly something that in 12 months will be gone. My personal opinion is that they will permanently grounded. 5th aviation will continue to operate Ch-47 and its 2 AW-189. I know 3 5th aviation pilots, of course I haven't talked to them because they are out on exercise, i think this is the nail in airframes coffin

So far this year to date, there have been 4 Blackhawk accidents with 30 fatalities (2 were a mid-air). Last year there were 18 accidents with 16 fatalities. If we grounded aircraft types every time they have an accident, or two, there would be nothing flying!

Why permanently ground a helicopter because of an accident that may very well have been simply due to operational risks (low flying at nicht over water has proven very accident prone -almost never tech related- over the past decades)? Pilots will be flying desks for a year and lose currency. Do you think that will benefit the safety on the new type? When then the first Blackhawk plows in do you want to ground them as well?

A wise senior once said to me " Never ground an aircraft type until you understand what will have to be done to unground it".

There is no reported evidence of cause, so far, so no reported evidence of any need to stop flying .

N

Quite!

MRH 90 loss
 

Looking at the accident history of this helicopter as presented in this link ( https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/NH90 ), it hardly calls for a fleet grounding.

It does in fact seem that several of the accidents may have been the result of some indelicate manipulation of the controls rather than the machine falling out of the sky.

Normal military procedure, unless it has changed since my time, to ground that aircraft type if there is a serious incident or accident.

its already ground, they grounded it next day. The issue is will it be permanent or temp grounding. Rumors I have been hearing is that 5th aviation was already winding down the MRH-90 concentrationg on the CH-47 and AW-189. With blackhawks starting to arrive this year for 6th out of holdsworthy and starting to prepare the base and facilities for 1st aviation converting from tigers to apache and moving from darwin to townsville where they will be based with 5th aviation

We will all wait and see. Last time, it's hard to blame the pilot, when the engine/gearbox blows up. The cause of this one will be known too.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-...hing/102201316
Defence grounded the army's entire Taipan fleet after an MRH-90 suffered an engine failure and ditched during a training exercise

Families have approved the public release of names.

Captain Daniel Lyon, Lieutenant Maxwell Nugent, Warrant Officer Class Two Joseph Laycock and Corporal Alexander Naggs, all members of the 6th Aviation Regiment,

RIP

RIP the crew. This is a rumour network - so here goes: "Two junior pilots and two inexperienced loadies, flew into the sea at cruise speed, so I have been told."

Speculation doesn’t help
 

How many hours does one need to be experienced and have you considered the quality of the hours flown versus the quantity? LT and CPL maybe, CAPT and WO2 I doubt.

This is not only very unhelpful it’s also extremely inaccurate.

It was quoted they were formation flying low level over water at night, is that inaccurate too?

Thats what I heard, but they were also SOF experienced pilots. 6th AVR fly taipans with SOF/TAG east (allegedly)

Yes it’s a rumour network, doesn’t mean it has to be one for uniformed, uneducated numb nuts who know nothing….and that’s as polite as I can make it.

I think the Chief of the Army hit the right note. (Transcript of media conference at Holsworthy Barracks, Sydney 1445K 30 July 2023)

JOURNALIST: Sir, can you tell us a bit more about these soldiers, their experience, how they were regarded by their colleagues and, of course, how their families are holding up?

LIEUTENANT-GENERAL SIMON STUART: Yeah, look, you've really got to feel for their families and their mates, and I would ask everybody to keep that in the front of their minds as they think and comment and speak about what has occurred. They're part of a really tight team in a very highly professional, highly skilled aviation unit. This is the aviation unit that supports and performs our special operations set of missions. I couldn't be more proud of them as professionals, as soldiers, and as people.

JOURNALIST: Sir, can I ask you about software upgrade issues on the Taipan helicopter? Is that going to be part of this current investigation that you're talking about? And also, is it part of the previous probe into the Jarvis Bay crash, similar with the Taipan helicopter?

LIEUTENANT-GENERAL SIMON STUART: Alright, so the Air Safety Investigation team arrived in Queensland today. They will do their work. It's very thorough investigative work, and the aim is to understand exactly what happened and why it happened. Speculation between now and them doing their work is really unhelpful. I'm not going to speculate, and I would ask others just to consider the families, the other aviators that are involved, and let's let that team do its work. We will find out what those outcomes are in due course. And the aim of being armed with that knowledge is to ensure that we understand what happened and we can prevent it happening again. As you probably know, we are not flying the MRH today, and we wait until we think it is safe to do so.

"uniformed"? Well it was a long time ago when I was an RAN FAA Jet pilot and not a helo jock; however my source is as reliable as any rumour passer onner may be. My motivation was the call for 'GROUND the TAIPANS' as the response here when perhaps it was unnecessary. At this age my nuts are a bit numb but I'm only uneducmackated in helo ops. :} Go here for more: SpazSinbad A4G - Fleet Air Arm Association of Australia (faaaa.asn.au)

Possibly a engine failure due to a engine stagnation/spool bending at engine start. A known issue which calls for engine vent before engine starting.

Most probably no relation to this tragic accident.

RIP.

Like he said, uninformed.

I would have thought fellow ADF aircrew would be smarter than to throw out speculation before the lads have even been recovered. Instead you have decided to win some prize by throwing out disparaging comments about the crew, like you’re in the know - then wagging your willie about being a FJ guy like that get you credibility and excuses your behaviour.

I don’t have to throw out a comment telling you how that makes you look amongst your fellow ADF aircrew.

While I get that speculation is natural, those lads are not inexperienced. That was a Black Role Crew in a challenging flight regime at low level.

Rest in easy lads, I really hope you all come home soon.

Ah so. My RUMOUR source has been accurate as much as any early rumour can be in my long experience. BUT of course blame the rumour monger. Apparently the TAIPANS have been grounded.

Only because their “long experience” should dictate that they know better.

For info, Is the aircraft fitted with a Dukane beacon to help the search?

They were grounded next day. A few were allowed to continue SAR but they all returned to townsville as other SAR aircraft took over the search


Actual location of the airframe was not an issue, the helicopter in formation saw it go down and started SAR within minutes. Theres already a barge on site with a crane and pictures of the aircraft being recovered

https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn...862&height=575

What can be taken from this picture is that it hit the surface really hard. That is massive destruction.
Hopefully there is data to be extracted from various devices (assuming they don't have traditional FDR + CVR - do they?)

'henra' opined above: "...hit the surface really hard...." 31 Jul 2023 "...Campbell [chief of the ADF, Gen Angus Campbell] declined to say whether an explosion may have occurred on the aircraft, but Marles said parts of the wreckage retrieved to date indicated that “there was a catastrophic impact of the helicopter when it hit the water”...." https://www.theguardian.com/australi...litary-victims

How many global BH hours flown, and how many global NH hours flown?

You're better than that.....

I wouldn't call WO2 Joe Paycock - who was awarded the AAAvn's Soldier of the Year award a few years back when he wore 3 stripes, "inexperienced"... Best you do your own research before you start casting aspersions on the crew by spewing unfounded rumours...

Inexperienced? Pull ya head in...:mad:

Fair enough about the 'experience' of some of the crew. Research is always good. [Perhaps you do not realise the crew were not known at the time the comment about their experience was made - I take the comment of inexperience is about their [b]SD on a black night over water issue perhaps.] However I'm not pulling my head in. The rumour (not generated by me but passed on by me here) seems accurate in that the helo catastrophically impacted the water. Perhaps Spatial Disorientation at Night had an evil hand in the loss of the crew, especially perhaps if the crew were not used to flying low over the ocean on a black night. Just my guess. SD can be experienced at any time depending upon many factors. Your research about 'black night SD low over water' will help you understand. SD affects all aircrew in flight - unrecognised SD can be fatal as in the instance below.

A very experienced Japanese Air Force pilot probably experienced unrecognised SD at night in an F-35A at high altitude but he flew into the water at a very high speed: Japan blames spatial disorientation for F-35 crash (defensenews.com)

Post was in reply to those asking why you would ground the fleet.

You did not know the experience of the crew but made a comment on it.

The 'YOU' in this instance was the 'rumour maker' which I passed on. At that time I could not know the names hence experience but trusted the 'rumour maker' who may have been referring to the accident conditions as I have outlined above. But hey criticise me all you want but don't lose sight of this fatal accident with potential causes such as SD that give any aircrew pause for thought. For example from the great GOOGLE: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pi...d_visillus.pdf "Any differences or discrepancies between visual, vestibular, and proprioceptive sensory inputs result in a “sensory mismatch” that can produce illusions and lead to spatial disorientation.... [just one example] False Visual Reference Illusions may cause you to orient your aircraft in relation to a false horizon; these illusions are caused by flying over a banked cloud, night flying over featureless terrain with ground lights that are indistinguishable from a dark sky with stars, or night flying over a featureless terrain [water] with a ... dark, starless sky...."

For more and there is plenty GOOGLE: "Helicopter" Spatial Disorientation at night Low over Water