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Illegal Salvage from Repulse and Prince of Wales Wrecks

Reports of the illegal salvage from wrecks of the Repulse and Prince of Wales by a Chinese Salvage Barge have been made.

https://news.usni.org/2023/05/25/u-k...of-wwii-wrecks

The trouble is SASless the UK MOD are a bunch of gasbags, make a noise. but let it happen, so it will not surprise me if they stand by and let them do it, Just as they have done in the past with the Dutch etc... personally I would seize the barge, scrap it and send the crew home.

See

http://thepipeline.info/blog/2016/05...-fails-to-act/

The irony in this is the Dutch did nothing then this happened

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...wrecks-of-java

Is salvage of old wrecks actually criminal? Despicable - no question, but is it really illegal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdracer (Post 11442171)

Is salvage of old wrecks actually criminal? Despicable - no question, but is it really illegal?

Yes, they remain the property of the flag state, and removal of any part of them would be the same as stealing any part of a military ship or plane or vehicle above high tide mark. The old wrecks are separately covered by UNCLOS, and trafficking in their artefacts is trafficking, and all involved can be prosecuted. The War Grave case is a separate matter but causes offensive.

When project Azorian/Glomar Explorer raised part of K-129, that was not compliant with international law, and the embarrassment of the USSR was sufficient to keep it a relatively open secret. The handing over of the ships bell by the US to the Russian Federation in 1993 made a point but also followed the law. 18 years late, but better late than never. The fact that the bell was inside the bit of the sub that was supposedly never recovered was apparently not lost on the Russians.

Spoiler

K-129 was supposedly sunk at N40E180, about 5 degrees south of where she was supposed to be. A free days after the sinking, a University of Hawaii research vessel apparently found an oil slick on the surface of the water near their research area, around Necker Reef according to Dr John P Craven. This was a factor used in suggestion that the sub had been lost in an attempted launch of a missile to look like a Chinese attack on Hawaii, in the book "Red Star Rogue". Interesting concept.

K-129 sank on 8th March 1968, and the presence of SOSUS records has been apparently shown in the Project Azorian video, (entertaining watching), and that gives time offsets purportedly for the recorded explosions... unfortunately, the offsets don't give a location anywhere near N40E180 or the N23W164 area that is the "rogue" location, which for the story has to be around 300nm +/- from... Honolulu.

Minor issues on the story is that the R/V Mahi a converted minesweeper was picked up by Dillingham Shipyard in March of 1968, and handed over to the university of Hawaii in June 1968 as their first R/V, chartered from Dillingham Maritime Services. I asked JP about this a few years before he died, and he was unable to give an answer as to why his reported statements of 2001 would differ from the official history of the vessel. Another vessel crops up later, the M/V Bel Hudson, which carrying cars from Yokohama to Long Beach on their normal GC track ended up with an medical emergency of their cook. Emergency assistance was provided by the medical team of the Glomar Explorer, while they were reportedly on station overhead the K-129. The logs of the Bel Hudson are stored in the UK in the maritime archives in Southampton I believe. The 2nd radioman recalled the event, and indicated no knowledge of the back story of the Glomar Explorer, or that their medical emergency had been part of the book on the recovery effort, which conveniently does support a 40N location more than a 23N one.

Old history, but still interesting, Red Star Rogue is fit for a Tom Clancy novel, but it also is not impossible, the facts don't line up completely for either location if the SOSUS time offsets are correct as portrayed, so the truth is out there.... maybe.

How about an embargo on buying scientific or medical equipment and machinery from China or that contains steel sourced from China?

Not going to happen though is it!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdracer (Post 11442171)

Is salvage of old wrecks actually criminal? Despicable - no question, but is it really illegal?

It's clearly illegal in UK law and it's certainly disrespectful

But , TBH, it doesn't do anyone a lot of harm

I'd like to see what President Xi would say if we decided to tear up some of their history (well, of course we did years back)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asturias56 (Post 11442236)

It's illegal under international law! But since when has China taken any notice of that.

Perhaps it`s time for the PM to invite the Chinese Ambassador/Consul ,in for a `chop suey `takeaway,with added sour sauce...

"It's illegal under internationallaw! But since when has China taken any notice of that."

The problem with international law is who is going to enforce it I'm afraid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asturias56 (Post 11442510)

"It's illegal under internationallaw! But since when has China taken any notice of that."
The problem with international law is who is going to enforce it I'm afraid.

Never mind the law, you'd have thought common decency might prevent grave robbing. A concept clearly absent from China.

I don't think many large Western Corporations have much of a sense of decency either - after all one blew up a Native Australian religious site not long ago.............

“…prompting a statement of concern from the Royal Navy…”

That should be sufficient. Problem solved.

It might. be noted that some WWII wrecks of ships sunk either by U-Boats or other causes have been reduced in height by explosives and cable drags when thought to be a hazard to navigation.

No thought was given to salvage or scavenge of the wrecks prior to that being done.....not withstanding there might have been Remains of those Lost still inside the wrecks.

If we do that kind of thing as a normal practice can we make too big an issue of what the Chinese are doing.

Either way.....some Remains will have surely been disturbed or destroyed.

Did anyone make a fuss when we recovered a sunk U boat off the north of Ireland to salvage it's non-nuclear steel for use in medical scanners decades ago?

Non-nuclear steel (steel smelted before Hiroshima) attracts a hefty price premium. It's a dwindling resource that cannot be replenished. Everyone is salvaging it where they can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Agrajag_ (Post 11442630)

You may be referring to one of the German submarines ("U-Boats") deliberately scuttled at sea by the Royal Navy post-war.

The day before the conclusion of hostilities in Europe, all sea-going submarines of the Kriegsmarine received instructions from Karl Doenitz (nice moniker, by the way) to surface and surrender themselves at one or two allied ports. Apart from a few of the later designs which were distributed between the victor-nations for research and development purposes, the remainder were assembled in Loch Foyle and, in a massive operation lasting around 3 months under the auspices of Operation Deadlight, all were towed to a location around 150km north of Ireland and scuttled.

All were unmanned and, so far as I am aware, there were no casualties.

According to one news site, the Malaysians have impounded the boat and arrested the crew.

They were allegedly lifting unexploded ordnance and parts of ship structure.

Some time ago I read about how steel from pre-atomic bomb days is highly valuable for making sensitive measuring instruments, as it is free from trace modern radiation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-65750908Malaysia has detained a Chinese-registered vessel suspected of looting two British World War Two shipwrecks.

The bulk carrier was seized on Sunday for anchoring illegally at the site in the South China Sea. Ammunition believed to be from the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, which were sunk by Japanese forces more than 80 years ago, was then found on board. The UK Ministry of Defence had earlier condemned the alleged raid as a "desecration" of maritime war graves.

Fishermen and divers first reported the presence of the foreign vessel to Malaysia authorities last month. Local maritime police detained the Chinese ship on Sunday. The ship, registered in Fuzhou, had 32 crew on board, the Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) said in a statement. Cannon shells "suspected to be from World War Two" were uncovered during a search of the vessel. Malaysian agencies are also investigating the provenance of the ammunition. The MMEA added that it is linked to a cache of unexploded artillery, said to be from the two sunken vessels, that police seized from a private scrap yard in the southern state of Johor earlier this month.

In 2017, during a tour of Malaysia, a local diver showed the then Prince Charles images that documented damage to the HMS Prince of Wales inflicted by scavengers. The Defence Secretary at the time responded by saying the UK would work with Malaysian and Indonesian governments to investigate claims that up to six British warships had been plundered in their waters.

The munitions on a civil flagged vessel could end up with hefty jail time attest for the skipper and some of the crew. You can get the death penalty for having ammo in some countries around there, that would put a damper on the festivities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdr (Post 11442831)

And I suspect the ammo itself could be quite unstable. It's why they are being very circumspect about clearing the SS Richard Montgomery in the Thames.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdr (Post 11442831)

especially in Malaysia - but let's be honest - the malaysians aren't going to pick that sort of fight with China. I'm fairly impressed they've arrested the ship tho'.