|
Illegal Salvage from Repulse and Prince of Wales Wrecks
Reports of the illegal salvage from wrecks of the Repulse and Prince of Wales by a Chinese Salvage Barge have been made.
https://news.usni.org/2023/05/25/u-k...of-wwii-wrecks |
The trouble is SASless the UK MOD are a bunch of gasbags, make a noise. but let it happen, so it will not surprise me if they stand by and let them do it, Just as they have done in the past with the Dutch etc... personally I would seize the barge, scrap it and send the crew home.
See http://thepipeline.info/blog/2016/05...-fails-to-act/ The irony in this is the Dutch did nothing then this happened https://www.theguardian.com/science/...wrecks-of-java |
Is salvage of old wrecks actually criminal? Despicable - no question, but is it really illegal?
|
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 11442171)
Is salvage of old wrecks actually criminal? Despicable - no question, but is it really illegal?
When project Azorian/Glomar Explorer raised part of K-129, that was not compliant with international law, and the embarrassment of the USSR was sufficient to keep it a relatively open secret. The handing over of the ships bell by the US to the Russian Federation in 1993 made a point but also followed the law. 18 years late, but better late than never. The fact that the bell was inside the bit of the sub that was supposedly never recovered was apparently not lost on the Russians.
Spoiler
|
How about an embargo on buying scientific or medical equipment and machinery from China or that contains steel sourced from China?
Not going to happen though is it!!! |
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 11442171)
Is salvage of old wrecks actually criminal? Despicable - no question, but is it really illegal?
But , TBH, it doesn't do anyone a lot of harm I'd like to see what President Xi would say if we decided to tear up some of their history (well, of course we did years back) |
Originally Posted by Asturias56
(Post 11442236)
It's clearly illegal in UK law and it's certainly disrespectful
But , TBH, it doesn't do anyone a lot of harm I'd like to see what President Xi would say if we decided to tear up some of their history (well, of course we did years back) |
Perhaps it`s time for the PM to invite the Chinese Ambassador/Consul ,in for a `chop suey `takeaway,with added sour sauce...
|
"It's illegal under internationallaw! But since when has China taken any notice of that."
The problem with international law is who is going to enforce it I'm afraid. |
Originally Posted by Asturias56
(Post 11442510)
"It's illegal under internationallaw! But since when has China taken any notice of that."
The problem with international law is who is going to enforce it I'm afraid. |
I don't think many large Western Corporations have much of a sense of decency either - after all one blew up a Native Australian religious site not long ago.............
|
“…prompting a statement of concern from the Royal Navy…”
That should be sufficient. Problem solved. |
It might. be noted that some WWII wrecks of ships sunk either by U-Boats or other causes have been reduced in height by explosives and cable drags when thought to be a hazard to navigation.
No thought was given to salvage or scavenge of the wrecks prior to that being done.....not withstanding there might have been Remains of those Lost still inside the wrecks. If we do that kind of thing as a normal practice can we make too big an issue of what the Chinese are doing. Either way.....some Remains will have surely been disturbed or destroyed. |
Did anyone make a fuss when we recovered a sunk U boat off the north of Ireland to salvage it's non-nuclear steel for use in medical scanners decades ago?
Non-nuclear steel (steel smelted before Hiroshima) attracts a hefty price premium. It's a dwindling resource that cannot be replenished. Everyone is salvaging it where they can. |
Originally Posted by _Agrajag_
(Post 11442630)
Did anyone make a fuss when we recovered a sunk U boat off the north of Ireland to salvage it's non-nuclear steel for use in medical scanners decades ago?
Non-nuclear steel (steel smelted before Hiroshima) attracts a hefty price premium. It's a dwindling resource that cannot be replenished. Everyone is salvaging it where they can. The day before the conclusion of hostilities in Europe, all sea-going submarines of the Kriegsmarine received instructions from Karl Doenitz (nice moniker, by the way) to surface and surrender themselves at one or two allied ports. Apart from a few of the later designs which were distributed between the victor-nations for research and development purposes, the remainder were assembled in Loch Foyle and, in a massive operation lasting around 3 months under the auspices of Operation Deadlight, all were towed to a location around 150km north of Ireland and scuttled. All were unmanned and, so far as I am aware, there were no casualties. |
According to one news site, the Malaysians have impounded the boat and arrested the crew.
They were allegedly lifting unexploded ordnance and parts of ship structure. Some time ago I read about how steel from pre-atomic bomb days is highly valuable for making sensitive measuring instruments, as it is free from trace modern radiation. |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-65750908Malaysia has detained a Chinese-registered vessel suspected of looting two British World War Two shipwrecks.
The bulk carrier was seized on Sunday for anchoring illegally at the site in the South China Sea. Ammunition believed to be from the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse, which were sunk by Japanese forces more than 80 years ago, was then found on board. The UK Ministry of Defence had earlier condemned the alleged raid as a "desecration" of maritime war graves. Fishermen and divers first reported the presence of the foreign vessel to Malaysia authorities last month. Local maritime police detained the Chinese ship on Sunday. The ship, registered in Fuzhou, had 32 crew on board, the Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency (MMEA) said in a statement. Cannon shells "suspected to be from World War Two" were uncovered during a search of the vessel. Malaysian agencies are also investigating the provenance of the ammunition. The MMEA added that it is linked to a cache of unexploded artillery, said to be from the two sunken vessels, that police seized from a private scrap yard in the southern state of Johor earlier this month. In 2017, during a tour of Malaysia, a local diver showed the then Prince Charles images that documented damage to the HMS Prince of Wales inflicted by scavengers. The Defence Secretary at the time responded by saying the UK would work with Malaysian and Indonesian governments to investigate claims that up to six British warships had been plundered in their waters. |
The munitions on a civil flagged vessel could end up with hefty jail time attest for the skipper and some of the crew. You can get the death penalty for having ammo in some countries around there, that would put a damper on the festivities.
|
Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11442831)
The munitions on a civil flagged vessel could end up with hefty jail time attest for the skipper and some of the crew. You can get the death penalty for having ammo in some countries around there, that would put a damper on the festivities.
|
Originally Posted by fdr
(Post 11442831)
The munitions on a civil flagged vessel could end up with hefty jail time attest for the skipper and some of the crew. You can get the death penalty for having ammo in some countries around there, that would put a damper on the festivities.
|
Originally Posted by artee
(Post 11442841)
And I suspect the ammo itself could be quite unstable. It's why they are being very circumspect about clearing the SS Richard Montgomery in the Thames.
I don't get it. Steel - OK (for the reasons already posted). But why ammo - potentially very dangerous ammo? |
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 11443157)
Why would they be going after the ammo? Aside from being 80 years old and potentially unstable (and hence quite dangerous), why would they want ammo that's spent the last 8 decades underwater?
I don't get it. Steel - OK (for the reasons already posted). But why ammo - potentially very dangerous ammo? |
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 11443157)
Why would they be going after the ammo? Aside from being 80 years old and potentially unstable (and hence quite dangerous), why would they want ammo that's spent the last 8 decades underwater?
I don't get it. Steel - OK (for the reasons already posted). But why ammo - potentially very dangerous ammo?
|
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 11442565)
It might. be noted that some WWII wrecks of ships sunk either by U-Boats or other causes have been reduced in height by explosives and cable drags when thought to be a hazard to navigation.
|
The heads are also good, there are several types, and after being cleared can make good paperweights.... |
well that means the only way the paper would blow away is if it detonates, but that would blow the house away too
|
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 11443557)
well that means the only way the paper would blow away is if it detonates, but that would blow the house away too
Having a 8 decade old unstable 15" shell stashed on your trawler is Darwin Award territory - if one of those suckers detonated on-board there wouldn't be much of anything left. |
|
|
A few gunnery facts.:8
Given the date of sinking they are AP 15 inch shells on Repulse with a bursting charge of 48.5 lbs (22 kg) of 70/30 shellite. Prince of Wales had 14 inch guns the APC shells had a smaller 39.8 lb (18.1 kg) charge. Later in the war KGVs carried 5 HE shells v 95 AP per gun the HE shells had a charge of c107 lbs. (48.5 kg). Still, I wouldn't want to be near one that could go off at any time. The 4" HA/LA guns on Repulse used solid shells and 5.25" HA/LA guns on PoW used a combination of shells with bursting charges of 3.25 lbs (SAP) / 6 lbs (HE) of TNT. In PoW the guns had a theoretical AA ceiling of 46,500 feet, a report on the loss of PoW concluded the guns would have been much more effective against the attacking aircraft if the crews hadn't had insufficient training. |
Apparently 100 'live' shells found on the ship
https://www.overtdefense.com/2023/05...ng-ww2-wrecks/ As mentioned above, the authorities found shells and scrap metal believed to be from PoW on a jetty at Tanjung Belungkor. According to the New Straights Times: Investigators also found 46 unexploded ordnances comprising 135mm and 40mm artillery shells, believed to be from the warship. |
They should also confiscate the ship as well,otherwise the Chinese will just pay the bill and try again...
|
Interesting Utube stuff
https://youtu.be/bjbwwrLUZ-o https://youtu.be/k9iRRBT1z54 |
Unfortunately this is not new. Before the UK withdrawal from the Far East, the resident maritime squadron (205) used to keep an eye on the ships positions during our regular patrols over the South China Sea, as even then there were attempts to plunder the wrecks. If we sighted anything suspicious the RN would dispatch something post-haste to investigate.
Of note it was possible to see at least one of the vessel's' superstructure underwater at low water. |
As we recovered 485 gold bars from the wreck of our cruiser HMS Edinburgh 200 miles off Murmansk, I think this took place in 1981, is this considered legal salvage even though a war grave was disturbed some 85 members of her crew going down with the ship after being torpedoed by a U boat?
|
Originally Posted by Prangster
(Post 11445797)
As we recovered 485 gold bars from the wreck of our cruiser HMS Edinburgh 200 miles off Murmansk, I think this took place in 1981, is this considered legal salvage even though a war grave was disturbed some 85 members of her crew going down with the ship after being torpedoed by a U boat?
|
Wouldn't it be a shame if some "unexploded ordnance" ;) happened to detonate whilst the salvage vessel was overhead. :E
|
Originally Posted by dagenham
(Post 11445812)
it was approved by HM government with proceeds being split between government and salvors
|
Originally Posted by dagenham
(Post 11445812)
it was approved by HM government with proceeds being split between government and salvors
|
Originally Posted by Asturias56
(Post 11446120)
Ahh! THEY are ruthless grave scavengers, we are "licensed by the Treasury"
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 10:39. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.