F35 pilots -
 

- rarer than rocking horse ****

news.sky.com/story/uk-has-more-f-35-fast-jets-than-pilots-to-fly-them-ben-wallace-admits-12735825

23 jets in the UK, more than 1 per pilot. Interesting that "the defence secretary described the situation as "quite a challenge", claiming that the deficit in pilots was also because the F-35 Lightning aircraft is new" What is his definition of new ?

Have China got more aircrew than we have?

(Mods, feel free to move to one of the other threads on F35 or training if you feel its more relevant)
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If only there were a solution.
 

Can someone tell me what would happen in industry if there were a critical shortage of highly skilled people in a key role?

You can give any answer you like as long as it doesn’t involve money. Because it’s not about the money.

BV

They bring them in from abroad?

Saintsman
 

Excellent answer. Maybe that’s the solution.

Perhaps the second part of my question should be what would happen in industry to prevent those highly qualified individuals that you already have from leaving?

The answer must still not involve money. Because money is not the answer.

BV

Industry would first attempt to poach someone else's experts and if unsuccessful, then try with the inexpert. Finally they would make an attempt to find an alternative which did not need the experts.

N

Bengo
 

Another excellent answer but poaching sounds awfully expensive. That sounds suspiciously like you are suggesting that money is the answer. But that can’t be right. Because we have been repeatedly told that money is not the answer.

I’m so confused.

BV

I flew the C-130 back in the early seventies. I volunteer. It can't be that hard....can it? :rolleyes:. That doesn't involve money, Bob; I'll do it for free.

What is the salary of a fast jet pilot?

This is so true.

Poaching is awfully expensive, which is why, although that's the first route, the bean counters demands on the purse strings usually means 9 times out of 10, that the poaching option falls at the first hurdle.....and thus the move to Option 2 begins.....

No, no. That's such a twentieth-century solution. You get the marketing department to produce a lavishly illustrated brochure showing how lean 'n' mean your organisation is and explaining why the number of pilots you have has been carefully optimised by world-class experts to be a perfect match to the number of airframes. In passing the brochure greenwashes the very low carbon footprint of the airframes, claims that they only use biomass-derived non-fossil fuel and can be fully recycled at the end of their lives. And so on and so forth ad nauseam.

I could get some hovering practice in with the Tiger Moth with today’s wind!

Mog

In my experience, the number1 option is to subcontract out - the best results come from organisations which employ our former colleagues! Those that don't take a lot of additional recovery work.

From what I hear, if it’s not about money, it’s about quality of life. Pilots (aircrew) have lost their status, their admin and support. Getting their leave allocation is rare as is time at home. They are submerged by trivia to such an extent that they have to regularly work 12 plus hour days despite only flying 6-10 hours a month. The pilots I know would forgo a pay rise if some of the QOL issues could be fixed.

UK Defence Secretary > HCDC just now - 33 F-35B pilots for 27 aircraft (including 3 x foreign - 1 x USAF / 1 x USMC / 1 x RAAF).

Only 13 of these are on the 12-aircraft front-line squadron (617 Sqn).

My comment: This of course is not only way below required NATO standards but insufficient for 24 hour ops + flying supervision.

On F-35B deliveries, it will take until 2025 to get 48 and "end of the decade" to get 74 [my comment: by comparison, RAAF will have all its 72 x F-35A by 2023].

On training pipeline:

Pilots holding for Valley AFT going backwards - now 51 vs 38 when CAS told 3 years ago to sort it - 9 holding post AFT for OCU - pilot entry hold down from 120 3 years ago > 25 now.

HCDC wants to see CAS ASAP.

Parliamentlive.tv - Defence Committee

But how do you fix the QOL issues without money? Which isn't the answer.

Ban anyone in the admin branch from e mailing squadron aircrew?

It is partly about money, because in the scenario you describe, industry would 'beat the problem to death with dollars'!

CG

careful folks - anyone from the Treasury reading this thread will think the obvious answer is to scrap the excess airframes....................

Of course an interesting question might be the relative ratio of pilots:aircraft between different fleets.

are, for example, young pilots being allocated on an equitable basis between F35 and Typhoon?

CG
 

You may not have picked up on my facetious tone. I, and anyone else who has not drunk the koolaid, knows it absolutely is about the money. But we are repeatedly told that money is not the answer.

Obviously it is a little more nuanced than that though.

Years of pay stagnation/real terms cuts, pension changes, poor married quarters, queep (google it if necessary) and opportunities elsewhere that can pay alot more. All set against a backdrop of zero money and a world in which any pay deal needs to be approved by the tri-service bean counters. One problem is that an AAC Corporal Helicopter pilot comes a lot cheaper than an F35 pilot. But they are viewed in exactly the same way. Another problem is, exactly as Timelord has alluded to, Aircrew have been marginalised. There are very large swathes of the RAF/Military that feel that pilots are nothing special. Sadly many companies outside disagree.

I would argue that a human that takes many years and many millions of pounds to train (I’m talking about all pilots here by the way not just FJ pilots) and actually understands the application of air power (this bit is completely ignored and just look at AVM Maria Byford as the very personification of what I’m talking about) is someone that should maybe be made to feel valued.

Anyway, I’m becoming like a stuck record and it really doesn’t affect me any more so I’ll zip it.

BV

The archer is critical to the use of bow and arrow; likewise with pilots and flying machines. (This is not a UAV thread, so don't anyone go there please).
This thread has ample merit.

From my understanding the whole system is completely screwed.

40 - 60 years ago, from Day 1 (Civvie Street) to Front Line Aircrew, 20 - 24 months.

Now 7 - 8 years in some cases??.

What on earth has it come to??.

Disgraceful,

TN.

The figures would look even worse if we hadn't already dropped one into the oggin.....:E

F35 Pilots
 

FOI response 2021

Is the F35 too challenging for the average pilot to fly?
I remember reading that a front-line fighter is designed to be flown by the most average of pilots.

Perhaps send the spare airframes direct to Beijing? I’m told there are some ex AF FJ pilots out there who might be interested…..

IGMC!

Not that great. Certainly not for a senior JP. Lifestyle is the issue I wager. Wartime levels away from home is not good for the dog. Nor a training system that takes decades to get Combat Ready pilots does kill morale. Mate of mine jumped from Tonka's early to go JSF. And watched his conversion course go right wing. And so far he jumped into something else on offer.

I would suggest that morals might come into question as well as duty to the King and Country... However maybe they equate their values to those of our politicians. Sad as the guys I met had more moral fibre.

All in the bean counters "weapons system life plan", Proclaim 135, 1 a year for 15 years, Aim for, 48 planes...so 48 pilots--possible/eventually, purchase 24, retire early in 2035 and await f85+, in 2052. oh and off course..using some kind of reverse PFI
sell them to the U.S marines.

Apparently theres 3 RAF / Fleet Air Arm going through flight training in Australia atm

No problem here, You are seeing the benefits of the RAF world leading temporally optimized, human centric, future proofed Air Force strategy to right size the kinetic deliverable footprint of British defense solutions.:D

3 Years in the CAF Ottawa puzzle palace did wonders for my vocabulary :p

Having been involved in things like this several times over the last 4 decades, both as an adviser and a practising departmental manager, I can assure you that any half decent industry or business would not have allowed itself to get into this situation in the first place! There would be strange things being done, like forecasting, model demand planning, attrition forecasting, output demand planning, scenario gaming and worst case scenario options. All of these things are alien to your average VSO, which explains why the RAF is in the current fix it is finds itself in, AGAIN!

It sacked 300 trainee aircrew not so long ago, it had retention schemes before that to keep people in, previous to that it had redundancy schemes to get rid of people...

It has massively reduced the value of being aircrew in terms of comparative salary, it has outsourced the responsibility for training output to a private consortium then dicked that consortium around in terms of required output. It has allowed the consortium to invest in tiny training fleets with no challenge or seeming interest.

On top of all this it has massively reduced annual and monthly flying hours. I spoke to 3 Typhoon aircrew recently whose main complaint was that they so rarely get to do what they joined up to do, fly! When I told them that back in my day I could expect a NATO minimum of 280 hours a year and would aim at 30 hours a month, and as a JP I could achieve that, albeit a bit more of a challenge for the more senior types, they were open mouthed. And on top of this they were also weary of constant detachments taking them away from home for lengthy periods, although they were happy with the flying rate on such, operational, detachments. And that is another key issue, whereas in my day we were a practising or rehearsing air force, today's RAF is a genuine war fighting operational force in which you will see action.

I realise that you are being a tad facetious in saying that it's not about the money, because it is, but surely it is also about absolutely crass decision making at the top by VSO's year after year and decade after decade.

Something Is rotten in the state of High Wycombe/Main Building.

China has done just this, per another thread running.

:} you forgot about alighting upon water to optimise tyre wear.

The F-35 is no doubt fun to drive, it is however planned to be a BVR type "weapons system" reliant on it's LO design to get some tactical advantage and to mess about with the irate recipients responses. That would suggest that gazillions of flat plate TV screens and/or VR would be nice to push through gloop into the sausage machine. The tactics are more pre cannable than prior ACM systems, and ground attack is a planning exercise as much as a repetitive in air training procedure. Mods can speak to B model learning curve, it is probably the most demanding part of the skills development, even chopper drivers are going to take some time there. For non STOVL, the sausage machine that applies to the EFA may not be all appropriate to the F-35. More training is fantastic, but if it takes 8-10 years to burp out a driver, and then you kink them out after 10 years due to RIF, T&Cs, etc, then the program is set to fail. If the system persists with a pipeline that doesn't achieve the need, then perhaps a change is needed, including reservists, or asking the PRC if the RAF can rent some FJ drivers back...

If Jessica Biel can do it... :ok:

With monthly F/Hrs, would think that the ratio of sim/FH would be fine at 8:1 - 10:1, with a plane like the F-35. Separately, the RAF HR honchos have done well to spike the system as an own goal. Should be worthy of a note of appreciation from Dear Leader Xi.

Should pilots flying pay be MORE than other aircrew trades??

Ah, but you forgot to mention the key stakeholders curating the... (sorry, brain's tripped again)

I was sandwiched between two very senior managers at an industry lunch one day- all the talk was about the (latest) crisis sweeping the industry. Both had laid of vast numbers of staff and the talk went to how they choose the slain

Company A - we reckon we won't be back to normal for 6-8 years so we fired everyone over 50 as when the turn comes they'll be so close to retirement they're not much use.

Company B - we reckon 6-8 years is about right - so we fired everyone under 30 as we reckon we retain the experience and we'll have plenty of time to train new bodies later on

To be fair they both could see the stupidity of either course

Most don’t, although the baseline is much higher of course. Most are having a fight in some form to keep pace with inflation.

The RAAF doesn't fly -35Bs, so how useful is that actually?