Temora Museum Vampire Engine Fire In Flight Recently
 

Temora Museum Vampire Engine Fire In Flight Recently
This text is from an e-mail: "Vampire took off, went up to 10,000 feet and throttled back. There was a bang from the engine, throttle advanced and vibration and a fire warning light came on. The aircraft made a deadstick landing back at Temora and the fire truck put out flames that were coming out the back as it was stopping. Bad damage to the engine nacelle."

Damn :( I hope it’s not too badly damaged.

There were multiple bands of "avoid these RPM" on those engines, it must have been hard to operate while dodging them.

The avoid RPM ranges (except for passing through) were; 7800 to 8650, 8800 to 9200, 10350 to 10650. These ranges were not hard to avoid as there were no operational or performance reason to set a power within them. Full throttle governed RPM 10750, climb power 10650, idle power 3000. All the "standard" power settings were easy to set outside the restricted ranges. In the circuit, after takeoff climb 9500, downwind 7500, base/finals around 5500.
I think these setting are correct, but it is 50 years since I last flew a Vampire, perhaps an indication of how well these restricted RPM ranges were drummed into ones memory.

Heheh 'zzuf' those NUMBERs were DRUMMED for sure even when disregarded (by newbies under stress) the engine would complain mightily to draw ones attention to 'the numbers'. :-) I'll post a graphic from the flight manual (it has appeared on a previous thread 'bout the VAMP silver ants. Meanwhile there is the cryptic text from a T.11 Vampire Pilots Notes:
Pilot's Notes VAMPIRE T.11 Part V - Emergency Handling Action in the event of fire
WARNING.- Fire in the engine bay may render the flying controls and pressure instruments useless, necessitating immediate abandoning of the aircraft. When Mod. 3418 is embodied the fire warning light may go out because the wiring has burned through.
(a) If the fire warning light comes on, close the throttle immediately, (If Mod. 3418 is embodied, the warning light(s) will go out when the temperature has dropped below 300 C, subject to the warning above.)
(1) Turn off H.P. and L.P. cocks. [High Pressure & Low Pressure Fuel Valves
(ii) Switch off the booster pump.
(iii) Reduce speed to 150 knots if possible and press the fire-extinguisher button.
(iv) Turn oxygen to emergency and turn OFF cockpit pressurisation.
(b) If the fire persists abandon the aircraft.
(c) When Mod. 3418 is embodied, if the warning light(s) goes out after the throttle is closed, a fractured air casing is indicated. It may be safe to use the engine under reduced power, but it is advisable to carry out actions (1) to (iv) unless the emergency dictates that the use of the engine be retained. If the engine is not shut down, unless the power used is small, further damage may be caused and the light will come on and remain on. Under these circumstances it is advisable therefore to throttle back every five minutes to check that the light goes out to indicate that a more serious fire has not started."

I believe the previous thread also included the good 'zzuf' ? telling us there were some older unmodified VAMPs that were only flown dual with an instructor (never solo students) because the VIBES were not for the faint of heart. Meanwhile:
RAAF Goblin Modification 1087
“7. In an endeavour to eliminate the critical vibration ranges of 7,800-8,650 rpm & 8,800-9,200 rpm in Goblin engines, a modified impellor and diffuser assembly was introduced. This modification 1087 has been incorporated in approximately 90 out of 150 engines.

8. Since the incorporation of this modification, a considerable number of minor defects and three major accidents overseas have led to extensive investigation and the following restrictions, which were necessary because of the impellor vane flutter which resulted in cracking and break-up of the impellor back plate, were imposed:-

(a) Operation in the following rpm ranges is prohibited except when passing through the range when changing power:-
(i) 10,350 to 10,650. (ii) More than 10,350 above 25,000 feet.

9. It is emphasized that failure to adhere to these limitations could cause impellor failure in a very short time.

10. The rpm ranges 7,800-8,650 & 8,800-9,200 should be avoided whenever possible. They must never be used for cruising or prolonged descent.”

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....09d3cf820f.gif

Hi SpazSinbad. The vibrations within the restricted RPM ranges were not physically detectable by the pilot. The "dual only" aircraft were known as "growlers" - often very loud growling noises. I think that these were the result of further compressor modification to reduce the restricted RPM ranges - they didn't do that. Some of the growlers did have pilot detectable vibration levels.
I recall flying one where the vibration and noise became so intense that the engine was shut down, and it quickly seized. Forced landing back at Pearce. Cause engine front bearing failure.
I recall an engine disintegration just after takeoff at Williamtown. Successful ejection. At the time the standard power setting after a pairs takeoff 10500.

Perhaps I'm remembering my RAN FAA Vampire time. I don't recall knowing about the above engine modification at all; while perhaps it was not the RAN/RAAF students province to know. Anyway I enjoyed my total Vampire time even though it was short. Macchis were MEH. :-(

You may recall the loss of an RAN FAA Vampire at Laverton with both crew RAN with a RAAF passenger dying in flames at the end of RW 18 because the engine failed during take off with a full drop tank load. That was right at the start of ground school for No.67 Pilot course Oct 1967. Details can be uploaded if required. The RAAF Pax was an engineer due to start the No.67 Pilot course (we found out later).

Yes, that accident crossed my mind almost every time I lined up a Vampire, Sabre, Canberra on any Laverton runway - Macchi no problem.

I went through the Vampire Course at RAF Swinderby in 1956/7 and I cannot remember any of the engine limitations quoted. The T11's were virtually new, but the Vampire FB5 and FB9 were having big problems, mostly through old age.

Here you go, MK 5 and 9 pilots notes

de Havilland Vampire FB 5 & 9 Pilots Notes vamp5pictures

Mk 11

de Havilland Vampire T11 Pilots Notes vamp5pictures

I was there at the same period and this is all news to me.
Spinning was the main problem area on the 11. We did have one instructor who, on a previous course, returned minus student whose exit had aided recovery.
On the 5 and 9 no negative g and problems recovering from high speed dives.

There were different marks of Goblin in the UK and Australian Vampires. The posts above show the Goblin 35 for Australia; those I flew had the Goblin 3.

I flew the RAF's T11 in training at Valley in 1962-63, and have a .pdf copy of the Pilots' Notes, dated 1960, and showing amendments incorporated in 1970. As the only Vampires in use after about 1965 were those (maybe only one?) retained at CFS, I doubt that there were major changes during the 60s.

The bands of RPM to avoid are listed as 8150-8650, and a spot speed of 10500 rpm. This is as I dimly recall from those distant days. The severe warning highlighted at post #6 is not shown, nor are the rpm bands below that warning. The different variants obviously had different characteristics. But.......but.......... why did the higher mark number have the worse behaviour? Was it actually a renumbered earlier variant? We need someone with much more knowledge of the DH Goblin than I have, to answer that.

The graphic in post 6 of the engine RPM is from the RAAF manual (a 25Mb PDF). Here is the FIRE stuff as indicated:
RAAF Flight Manual Vampire Mk.35 & 35A Dual Trainers 1960 amended 1966
Engine Fire Extinguisher
5. Ten resetting type fire detectors, located in the engine bay, provide fire warning.

6. The engine fire extinguisher, which is situated in the inner port flap bay, is operated by a shielded push button above the flight instruments on the control panel. An engine fire warning light is located on the control panel immediately below the fire extinguisher push button. When the fire warning light glows, the push button is illuminated by a red pillar light and indicates there is a fire in the engine bay. If the fire is extinguished the fire warning light will go out.

7. A press-to-test switch, located on the shroud to the right of the E2A or E2B compass, allows functional testing of the fire warning light and fuse....

...Engine Fire During Flight
5. If there is an indication of fire during flight:-
(a) Close throttle - reduce speed as quickly as possible.
(b) Close HP and LP cocks.
(c) Booster pump OFF.
(d) Pressurization - OFF.
(e) Select oxygen to EMERGENCY.
(f) Operate fire extinguisher.
(g) If warning light remains ON jettison canopy and EJECT.

6. If the warning light goes OUT the decision to abandon the aircraft or carry out a forced landing rests entirely with the pilot in command. Circumstances could arise where initially a pilot elects to remain with the aircraft until over more suitable terrain to carry out an ejection. IT IS STRONGLY RECOMMENDED THAT PILOTS CONSIDER EJECTION IN PREFERENCE TO CARRYING OUT A FORCED LANDING.

WARNING
An engine bay fire in flight can cause considerable damage to the control cables and pulleys. It is difficult for the pilot to assess the extent of damage incurred: and any attempt to do so by exercising the controls should be carried out above 10,000 feet AGL (the minimum height for out of control ejection). Under no circumstances should the controls be exercised below that height in an attempt to assess the damage. After an engine bay fire, pilots should remain alert to sudden loss of control particularly if below 10,000 feet AGL. Pilots who elect to carry out a forced landing do so at the risk of loss of control at a critical stage of flight, and thus may reduce the chances of ejection."

From the Pilot's Notes for the Vampire T11 (amended to 1970) powered by the Goblin 3:

"N6-837 4105 T.34/T34A Delivered 1954. Originally A79-837. Coded 927, 956 or 960 between 1954-58. Coded 805 between 1963-68. Noted in Navy service still wearing A79-837. Crashed 11/10/67 Laverton Vic. Killed were the Pilot Sub Lt Lynch and passenger [FLGOFF S. Barkley]. Noel Fenton adds “Crashed at Laverton in October 1967. The cause of the crash was the failure of the engine main thrust bearing at a critical time during takeoff. The aircraft continued beyond the runway end into the overrun. Unfortunately, it hit the railway embankment which demolished the nose of the aircraft and caused damage to one of the two full drop tanks. Burning fuel sprayed over the two crew and they died from major burns. The non-pilot (a Pilot Officer just graduated from Melbourne University) was an Engineering Officer attached to ARDU and had been posted to Point Cook for his Pilots Course [No.67] a day or so earlier." ADF Serials Message Board -> Crash Of Vampire N6-838 Crash PHOTO: http://www.adf-messageboard.com.au/i...1301446928.jpg
Newspaper Report JPG: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/...12-10-1967.jpghttps://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....56de3e72ed.gif

Pilot's Notes VAMPIRE T.11 4th Edition Jan 1960 Engine Limitations
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....dfa658567a.gif

Museum Vampire straight out of major servicing!

I remember being taken, as a young boy, on a visit to the de Haviland
factory and seeing these engines being assembled.
Remember particularly the balance area where Fred (or Jim, Harry, Bruce ?)
was the only guy who knew how to balance them.

My only experience of the Ghost and Goblin bar training was running the MRD.

Surely the MRDs used Derwents?

Eleven years ago there was this thread & replies: https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-401005.html
'Fareastdriver' 6th Jan 2010, 10:45 "In the days when R/R Dewents were used to power Meteors, aircraft were quite handy. A couple of Vampires positioned by tractors could blow of a fair amount of snow. IIRC we cleared a one aircraft wide strip on Oakington's runway in a day from 3 inches. In the V Force days it was imperative for the runway to be clear enough for our nuclear deterent to get airborne. The MRD was invented for that. To many aircraft tugs were being overturned by Victors when the pilot was a bit clumsy on the throttles...."
&
'Thunderguts' 6th Jan 2010, 15:34 "Winter of 62/63 RAF Oakington. The 'staish' had the bright idea of getting us students out on the runway with shovels, to help the bowsers with their snowploughs. After two days hard work, there was not a lot to show for our efforts. However the boss had 'a cunning plan'! Vampires had a downward pointing jet efflux, therefore much better to use them than the non existant MRD. So up and down the runway went a series of T11's which turned the snow into slush and water, which promptly froze! So we now had a five thousand foot skating rink. Never did finish the flying course, got my wings early in a sort of parade in the mess anteroom. As an afterthought was an MRD called a 'sicart'? Happy days"
&
'India69' 7th Jan 2010, 18:31 "Shawbury,late 60's early 70's; 3 vamp engines ? abreast, towed along did the trick, but the noise was terrible."

From a posting by 'baloffski'on 'Key Aero' some 10 years ago:

I’m sure the ones at Brize had both but it might be brain fade.

Pics of MRD’s in action

https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...earance-6.html

I recall being told by one of my Hunter QFIs that back when he was on his first squadron, the Meteor 8 wasn't long out of service. When the Hunters were grounded by snow, it wasn't unknown for some joker to ask around the crewroom "Do any of you chaps have any Meteor time?". Those who weren't wise to this gotcha would say "Yes" - only to be invited to man the MRD with its double Derwents!

Interesting. I have my T11, Goblin 3, pilots notes from the last course at Swinderby.
On the limitations page it gives max rpm 10,750 but in RAF use 10,650 ,(slight differences for the RN !) BUT with caveat that operation at speeds be tween 8,150 and 8,650 and 10,500 must be kept to an absolute minimum.
Other limits are intermediate at 10,350, 660 jpt.
Also stated is that above 25,000 feet max rom is limited to 10,350 !
My notes are 4th edition dated Jan 1960 as amended with AL 3, and as issued to us all at 8 FTS in October 1963 !

de Havilland Vampire DH115 pilot notes Second Edition March 1957 GOBLIN 35 & 35B rpm limitations
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....74d01225ba.gif

A Sicard is a different beast..... Powered brushes that swept snow to a blower that pushed it up a chimney so a stream of snow would be blown clear of the operating surfaces..

I seem to recall that by the time the runway, taxiways, dispersals and hangar access were clear, snow would have thawed anyway.

KenThere were different marks of Goblin in the UK and Australian Vampires. The posts above show the Goblin 35 for Australia; those I flew had the Goblin 3.
"I flew the RAF's T11 in training at Valley in 1962-63, and have a .pdf copy of the Pilots' Notes, dated 1960, and showing amendments incorporated in 1970. As the only Vampires in use after about 1965 were those (maybe only one?) retained at CFS, I doubt that there were major changes during the 60s.

The bands of RPM to avoid are listed as 8150-8650, and a spot speed of 10500 rpm. This is as I dimly recall from those distant days. The severe warning highlighted at post #6 is not shown, nor are the rpm bands below that warning. The different variants obviously had different characteristics. But.......but.......... why did the higher mark number have the worse behaviour? Was it actually a renumbered earlier variant? We need someone with much more knowledge of the DH Goblin than I have, to answer that."

There were still quite a few T11s used for training Iraqis at Leeming in July 1967 when I arrived there. The flight was commanded by the estimable Reg Drown, a fellow Janner. After about 6 months the flight moved to Swinderby, sadly before I could scrounge a trip. I've no idea how long they operated from Swinderby.
kenparry is offline Report Post

For some reason the RAAF Marks started by adding 30 to the equivalent British mark number. No idea why.
The Goblin could be a leaky beast and I remember during my training seeing one torch alarmingly on start up. Fair put the wind up all who beheld the sight! Fortunately no one was harmed.

Wasn’t that the reason you could recognise Vampire Groundcrew as they used their berets to beat out the flames on the tail planes at start up.



…

:rolleyes: An RAAF Vampire in ‘F-35B STOVL’ Mode RAAF Laverton 20 July 1991 :Dhttps://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....68745d645f.jpg

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/a...amplav1ll1.jpg [does seem to be there anymore]

Common start up flames - especially if a slight tailwind - in a strong tailwind bad juju for GOBLIN engine start, best to turn aircraft into wind.

de Havilland Vampire Startup doing Fire Flames

Brakedwell - would you be able to tell me any more about your time on the Vamp course? :D
I have all of half an hour on a T.11 (earlier this year)....


I believe an initial eight-week appraisal of the production T.11 declared “ the only condition in which the aircraft’s behaviour is unpleasant (although not dangerous) is the spin”....

Would you be able to tell me a bit more about your experiences with her? I'd love to hear more.

Would you fancy having a chat about your time on the T.11? I'd be really interested in hearing from someone who trained on her.
I've only got all of half an hour (but it was the best half an hour's flying I've yet done!)

FREE - VAMPIRE T-11 Pilot Notes 4th Edition January 1960 PDF 7.3Mb

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attach...11-pdf.565983/
_______________________________

Story about flying in T-11 Vampire in UK Feb 2021 INTERLUDE with a VAMPIRE from PILOT Magazine

[for moment cannot upload 11Mb PDF with some msg about 'token missing' so "I MAY BE SOME TIME"]

Got down to about 7.5Mb PDF File Size but 'story' would not upload. :-(

Another T-11 in UK Vampire story 'Keeping the Flame Alive' [you betcha] from FLYPAST Jul 2018 PDF 6 pages attached (1.3Mb). FLAMIN' Vamp Start JPG added.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e08eed0f4c.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....4ee6052a53.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....59054717e4.jpg

Reduced file size (just readable text) of 10 page PDF above reprinted etc to 5 pages (side by side).

Story about flying in T-11 Vampire in UK Feb 2021 INTERLUDE with a VAMPIRE from PILOT Magazine

I'd love to hear more from anyone who flew the Vamp - I'm currently trying to compile some accounts and tell her story with the help of those who were there.
As freelance journalism goes, to call it an obsession may be putting it mildly at this point, but I'm absolutely adamant the Vampire is every bit as important as the Hunter and Canberra books out there...

If anyone would care to drop me an email at [email protected] I'd be very grateful indeed :D