Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Temora Museum Vampire Engine Fire In Flight Recently

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Temora Museum Vampire Engine Fire In Flight Recently

Old 28th Oct 2021, 00:30
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 73
Posts: 1,992
Temora Museum Vampire Engine Fire In Flight Recently

Temora Museum Vampire Engine Fire In Flight Recently
This text is from an e-mail: "Vampire took off, went up to 10,000 feet and throttled back. There was a bang from the engine, throttle advanced and vibration and a fire warning light came on. The aircraft made a deadstick landing back at Temora and the fire truck put out flames that were coming out the back as it was stopping. Bad damage to the engine nacelle."
SpazSinbad is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 01:10
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 20,940
Damn I hope it’s not too badly damaged.
NutLoose is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 05:33
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Great South East, tired and retired
Posts: 3,562
There were multiple bands of "avoid these RPM" on those engines, it must have been hard to operate while dodging them.
Ascend Charlie is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 06:11
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 191
The avoid RPM ranges (except for passing through) were; 7800 to 8650, 8800 to 9200, 10350 to 10650. These ranges were not hard to avoid as there were no operational or performance reason to set a power within them. Full throttle governed RPM 10750, climb power 10650, idle power 3000. All the "standard" power settings were easy to set outside the restricted ranges. In the circuit, after takeoff climb 9500, downwind 7500, base/finals around 5500.
I think these setting are correct, but it is 50 years since I last flew a Vampire, perhaps an indication of how well these restricted RPM ranges were drummed into ones memory.
zzuf is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 06:42
  #5 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 73
Posts: 1,992
Heheh 'zzuf' those NUMBERs were DRUMMED for sure even when disregarded (by newbies under stress) the engine would complain mightily to draw ones attention to 'the numbers'. :-) I'll post a graphic from the flight manual (it has appeared on a previous thread 'bout the VAMP silver ants. Meanwhile there is the cryptic text from a T.11 Vampire Pilots Notes:
Pilot's Notes VAMPIRE T.11 Part V - Emergency Handling Action in the event of fire
WARNING.- Fire in the engine bay may render the flying controls and pressure instruments useless, necessitating immediate abandoning of the aircraft. When Mod. 3418 is embodied the fire warning light may go out because the wiring has burned through.
(a) If the fire warning light comes on, close the throttle immediately, (If Mod. 3418 is embodied, the warning light(s) will go out when the temperature has dropped below 300 C, subject to the warning above.)
(1) Turn off H.P. and L.P. cocks. [High Pressure & Low Pressure Fuel Valves
(ii) Switch off the booster pump.
(iii) Reduce speed to 150 knots if possible and press the fire-extinguisher button.
(iv) Turn oxygen to emergency and turn OFF cockpit pressurisation.
(b) If the fire persists abandon the aircraft.
(c) When Mod. 3418 is embodied, if the warning light(s) goes out after the throttle is closed, a fractured air casing is indicated. It may be safe to use the engine under reduced power, but it is advisable to carry out actions (1) to (iv) unless the emergency dictates that the use of the engine be retained. If the engine is not shut down, unless the power used is small, further damage may be caused and the light will come on and remain on. Under these circumstances it is advisable therefore to throttle back every five minutes to check that the light goes out to indicate that a more serious fire has not started."
SpazSinbad is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 06:48
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 73
Posts: 1,992
I believe the previous thread also included the good 'zzuf' ? telling us there were some older unmodified VAMPs that were only flown dual with an instructor (never solo students) because the VIBES were not for the faint of heart. Meanwhile:
RAAF Goblin Modification 1087
“7. In an endeavour to eliminate the critical vibration ranges of 7,800-8,650 rpm & 8,800-9,200 rpm in Goblin engines, a modified impellor and diffuser assembly was introduced. This modification 1087 has been incorporated in approximately 90 out of 150 engines.

8. Since the incorporation of this modification, a considerable number of minor defects and three major accidents overseas have led to extensive investigation and the following restrictions, which were necessary because of the impellor vane flutter which resulted in cracking and break-up of the impellor back plate, were imposed:-

(a) Operation in the following rpm ranges is prohibited except when passing through the range when changing power:-
(i) 10,350 to 10,650. (ii) More than 10,350 above 25,000 feet.

9. It is emphasized that failure to adhere to these limitations could cause impellor failure in a very short time.

10. The rpm ranges 7,800-8,650 & 8,800-9,200 should be avoided whenever possible. They must never be used for cruising or prolonged descent.”



Last edited by SpazSinbad; 28th Oct 2021 at 06:55. Reason: add viddy add grfx
SpazSinbad is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 07:37
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 191
Hi SpazSinbad. The vibrations within the restricted RPM ranges were not physically detectable by the pilot. The "dual only" aircraft were known as "growlers" - often very loud growling noises. I think that these were the result of further compressor modification to reduce the restricted RPM ranges - they didn't do that. Some of the growlers did have pilot detectable vibration levels.
I recall flying one where the vibration and noise became so intense that the engine was shut down, and it quickly seized. Forced landing back at Pearce. Cause engine front bearing failure.
I recall an engine disintegration just after takeoff at Williamtown. Successful ejection. At the time the standard power setting after a pairs takeoff 10500.

Last edited by zzuf; 28th Oct 2021 at 07:55.
zzuf is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 08:28
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 73
Posts: 1,992
Perhaps I'm remembering my RAN FAA Vampire time. I don't recall knowing about the above engine modification at all; while perhaps it was not the RAN/RAAF students province to know. Anyway I enjoyed my total Vampire time even though it was short. Macchis were MEH. :-(

You may recall the loss of an RAN FAA Vampire at Laverton with both crew RAN with a RAAF passenger dying in flames at the end of RW 18 because the engine failed during take off with a full drop tank load. That was right at the start of ground school for No.67 Pilot course Oct 1967. Details can be uploaded if required. The RAAF Pax was an engineer due to start the No.67 Pilot course (we found out later).
SpazSinbad is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 08:52
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 191
Yes, that accident crossed my mind almost every time I lined up a Vampire, Sabre, Canberra on any Laverton runway - Macchi no problem.
zzuf is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 11:51
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Under the clouds now
Age: 84
Posts: 2,336
I went through the Vampire Course at RAF Swinderby in 1956/7 and I cannot remember any of the engine limitations quoted. The T11's were virtually new, but the Vampire FB5 and FB9 were having big problems, mostly through old age.

Last edited by brakedwell; 28th Oct 2021 at 14:38.
brakedwell is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 12:15
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 20,940
Here you go, MK 5 and 9 pilots notes

de Havilland Vampire FB 5 & 9 Pilots Notes vamp5pictures

Mk 11

de Havilland Vampire T11 Pilots Notes vamp5pictures
NutLoose is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:03
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: West Sussex
Age: 84
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by brakedwell View Post
I went through the Vampire Course at RAF Swinderby in 1956/7 and I cannot remember any of the engine limitations quoted. The T11's were virtually new, but the Vapire FB5 and FB9 were having big problems, mostly through old age.
I was there at the same period and this is all news to me.
Spinning was the main problem area on the 11. We did have one instructor who, on a previous course, returned minus student whose exit had aided recovery.
On the 5 and 9 no negative g and problems recovering from high speed dives.
Quietplease is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:19
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 841
There were different marks of Goblin in the UK and Australian Vampires. The posts above show the Goblin 35 for Australia; those I flew had the Goblin 3.

I flew the RAF's T11 in training at Valley in 1962-63, and have a .pdf copy of the Pilots' Notes, dated 1960, and showing amendments incorporated in 1970. As the only Vampires in use after about 1965 were those (maybe only one?) retained at CFS, I doubt that there were major changes during the 60s.

The bands of RPM to avoid are listed as 8150-8650, and a spot speed of 10500 rpm. This is as I dimly recall from those distant days. The severe warning highlighted at post #6 is not shown, nor are the rpm bands below that warning. The different variants obviously had different characteristics. But.......but.......... why did the higher mark number have the worse behaviour? Was it actually a renumbered earlier variant? We need someone with much more knowledge of the DH Goblin than I have, to answer that.
kenparry is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:58
  #14 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 73
Posts: 1,992
The graphic in post 6 of the engine RPM is from the RAAF manual (a 25Mb PDF). Here is the FIRE stuff as indicated:
RAAF Flight Manual Vampire Mk.35 & 35A Dual Trainers 1960 amended 1966
Engine Fire Extinguisher
5. Ten resetting type fire detectors, located in the engine bay, provide fire warning.

6. The engine fire extinguisher, which is situated in the inner port flap bay, is operated by a shielded push button above the flight instruments on the control panel. An engine fire warning light is located on the control panel immediately below the fire extinguisher push button. When the fire warning light glows, the push button is illuminated by a red pillar light and indicates there is a fire in the engine bay. If the fire is extinguished the fire warning light will go out.

7. A press-to-test switch, located on the shroud to the right of the E2A or E2B compass, allows functional testing of the fire warning light and fuse....

...Engine Fire During Flight
5. If there is an indication of fire during flight:-
(a) Close throttle - reduce speed as quickly as possible.
(b) Close HP and LP cocks.
(c) Booster pump OFF.
(d) Pressurization - OFF.
(e) Select oxygen to EMERGENCY.
(f) Operate fire extinguisher.
(g) If warning light remains ON jettison canopy and EJECT.

6. If the warning light goes OUT the decision to abandon the aircraft or carry out a forced landing rests entirely with the pilot in command. Circumstances could arise where initially a pilot elects to remain with the aircraft until over more suitable terrain to carry out an ejection. IT IS STRONGLY RECOMMENDED THAT PILOTS CONSIDER EJECTION IN PREFERENCE TO CARRYING OUT A FORCED LANDING.

WARNING
An engine bay fire in flight can cause considerable damage to the control cables and pulleys. It is difficult for the pilot to assess the extent of damage incurred: and any attempt to do so by exercising the controls should be carried out above 10,000 feet AGL (the minimum height for out of control ejection). Under no circumstances should the controls be exercised below that height in an attempt to assess the damage. After an engine bay fire, pilots should remain alert to sudden loss of control particularly if below 10,000 feet AGL. Pilots who elect to carry out a forced landing do so at the risk of loss of control at a critical stage of flight, and thus may reduce the chances of ejection."
Attached Files
File Type: pdf

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 28th Oct 2021 at 15:22. Reason: add PDF page(s)
SpazSinbad is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 17:30
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,996
From the Pilot's Notes for the Vampire T11 (amended to 1970) powered by the Goblin 3:
ENGINE LIMITATIONS
Take-off and operational necessity (15 mins.).. .. .. .. 10750 rpm 710°C (10350 rpm above 25000ft); [RAF users restricted to 10650 rpm]
Intermediate (20 min.) .. .. .. 10350 rpm 660°C

Max. continuous .. .. .. 10250 rpm 650°C
Ground Idling .. .. .. 3000±200 rpm 600°C
BEagle is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 21:43
  #16 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 73
Posts: 1,992
"N6-837 4105 T.34/T34A Delivered 1954. Originally A79-837. Coded 927, 956 or 960 between 1954-58. Coded 805 between 1963-68. Noted in Navy service still wearing A79-837. Crashed 11/10/67 Laverton Vic. Killed were the Pilot Sub Lt Lynch and passenger [FLGOFF S. Barkley]. Noel Fenton adds “Crashed at Laverton in October 1967. The cause of the crash was the failure of the engine main thrust bearing at a critical time during takeoff. The aircraft continued beyond the runway end into the overrun. Unfortunately, it hit the railway embankment which demolished the nose of the aircraft and caused damage to one of the two full drop tanks. Burning fuel sprayed over the two crew and they died from major burns. The non-pilot (a Pilot Officer just graduated from Melbourne University) was an Engineering Officer attached to ARDU and had been posted to Point Cook for his Pilots Course [No.67] a day or so earlier." ADF Serials Message Board -> Crash Of Vampire N6-838 Crash PHOTO: http://www.adf-messageboard.com.au/i...1301446928.jpg
Newspaper Report JPG: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/...12-10-1967.jpg
SpazSinbad is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 22:06
  #17 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 73
Posts: 1,992
Pilot's Notes VAMPIRE T.11 4th Edition Jan 1960 Engine Limitations

SpazSinbad is online now  
Old 28th Oct 2021, 23:56
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NSW
Posts: 97
Museum Vampire straight out of major servicing!

TBM-Legend is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2021, 15:11
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: moraira,spain-Norfolk, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 380
I remember being taken, as a young boy, on a visit to the de Haviland
factory and seeing these engines being assembled.
Remember particularly the balance area where Fred (or Jim, Harry, Bruce ?)
was the only guy who knew how to balance them.
esa-aardvark is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2021, 19:16
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 20,940
My only experience of the Ghost and Goblin bar training was running the MRD.
NutLoose is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.