AUKUS
Australia, UK and Us sign new treaty to share nuclear submarine secrets and build a fleet and operate of nuclear hunter-killer submarines (SSN not SSBN) based in Adelaide.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/bid...co-2021-09-15/ https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-a...15-p58rzz.html |
Based in Western Australia. Perhaps built in Adelaide?
Extraordinarily decisive new direction which is in part rather alarming. Long range bombers, in some form, will be next. The new Treaty driving a number of possibilities in this area. |
Significance absence is, perhaps, NZ out….
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Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11111748)
Significance is, perhaps, NZ out….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Ze...lear-free_zone |
Perhaps also their seeming policy of appeasement towards Chinese sanctions and trade policy rather than support Australia and other allies.
NZ would seem to be rapidly approaching a point where they will have to take sides in an increasing Cold War in the pacific. https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pa...ift-over-china |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 11111752)
Perhaps also their seeming policy of appeasement towards Chinese sanctions and trade policy rather than support Australia and other allies.
NZ would seem to be rapidly approaching a point where they will have to take sides in an increasing Cold War in the pacific. https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pa...ift-over-china |
NZ is an agrarian economy, very dependant upon China and cleaning up in any Sino-Australian trade disputes. Its defence force has been relegated toward a paramilitary like status in many areas however, it plays an important role in the South Pacific: fisheries patrol, disaster relief and humanitarian roles.
Great to have the Brit's back. Deployments welcomed. |
Several years ago I asked here why Australia was not acquiring nuclear boats from the US - and was roundly mocked by many on the forum who thought they knew better.
Well, time seems to be proving me right. I think this is an excellent decision... more detail awaited with great interest. And I hope that somewhere in Canberra - someone is lobbying to get some B-21s as well. Yep - the Greens have started to whine already:"I also do think that it is attempting to gain a beachhead for a nuclear industry in Australia, which we know has been something that the Coalition, many people in the Coalition have been pushing for, for some period of time. But at the end of the day, the prime minister needs to explain – what will happen if there’s an accident with a nuclear reactor now in the heart of one of our major cities? How many people in Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth will die as a result of it? What is going to happen if there is a problem with one of the nuclear reactors? And today we’ve heard nothing about the safety. Well, these will be floating Chernobyls in the heart of our major cities. And it will increase tensions in our region at a time when Australia, as a middle power, should be taking an independent course and doing everything that we can to de-escalate conflict in the region." |
After this sinks in, I’ll be curious to see the man on the street reaction in Australia. Was under the impression anything nuclear was taboo.
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The history of submarine warfare mainly covers the North Atlantic in both World Wars and the Cold War. However for those who are interested do a bit of searching on submarine warfare in the Pacific during WW2 and you will discover the significant role the submarine base at Fremantle played in strangling Japanese maritime traffic. Essentially the Allies did to the Japanese what the Germans tried to do to England. I have no doubt that somewhere behind these plans for a nuclear powered sub, which is a very significant shift from Australia's policy on how their subs are to be powered, is the history of the last maritime conflict in the Indo Pacific. I also wonder if they have received information about Chinese detection capability of conventionally powered subs.
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Originally Posted by West Coast
(Post 11111810)
After this sinks in, I’ll be curious to see the man on the street reaction in Australia. Was under the impression anything nuclear was taboo.
The Australian anti-nuclear lobby is loud and utterly scientifically ignorant. Despite having some of the worlds greatest reserves of yellow cake, a need for carbon neutral power, revitalisation of domestic manufacturing and building of STEM capability. Not to mention China. |
Soundly in favour of it, about time we ditched the (polluting) diesel subs and went nuclear. We are a huge source of uranium, though it will need overseas processing to become fuel rods.
The French contract was a horse's arse, massive modifications to make it sort of suitable, and driven by politicians wanting some of the action in their electorates. Also not delivered till 2035, about 10 years after China takes over Hong Kong and Taiwan and a bunch of other islands in the Philippines and Indonesia. Typical Greens, screeching about explosions in the capital cities. Can we turn them into Soylent Greens? |
At an ADFA open day a few years ago, I had a long discussion with a senior RAN submariner.
He hinted they already spend a lot of time cruising around in the South China sea itself - shallow water. The supposed rationale for diesel electric boats was primarily that they are quieter and smaller than nuclear boats. The current quietest sub in the world is Swedish and diesel/electric. I suspect that in the classified world - the capability of long range UUVs is getting to the point that nuclear mother boat will be able to sit in deeper water for months and dispatch loyal seamen (tee hee) to sneak in and do the ultra quiet shallow water stuff. I wonder whether the RAN will get off the shelf Virginia class boats, or the Astute class and what the weapon load out will be. |
I suspect we will get Astute class as UK shipbuilding of Astute class will be running down in not too distant future. Aust will build them in Australia but with a lot of stuff made in UK. Apparently US needed to give approve for UK to sell some of their nuclear reactor tech to Aust..
I also can’t see us getting 12 subs now. Fewer needed given nuclear range and speed. This will mean easier for us to crew them (even though they have larger crews) as submariners are not in plentiful supply. However we will need to get a lot of new crew and maintenance skills that will take a long time to mature. A lot of help will be needed from US and UK for basically ever. |
I'm not so sure about partnering with Australia given how they've been treating their population over the past 18 months. The actions get more and more extreme.
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Originally Posted by unmanned_droid
(Post 11111827)
I'm not so sure about partnering with Australia given how they've been treating their population over the past 18 months. The actions get more and more extreme.
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An interesting article here on the thinking - with an map showing time on station in South East Asia for nuclear boats - 77 days.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ubmarine-force The articles talking about Australia being part of the Indo-Pacific that have been appearing in Australian media over the last few weeks now start to make a lot of sense. |
Just remember The Greens don’t run Australia, so their opinion is worth SFA!
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Originally Posted by Stationair8
(Post 11111836)
Just remember The Greens don’t run Australia, so their opinion is worth SFA!
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The capitalists in Washington, London and Canberra have nothing but a hammer therefore Chinese economic growth can only be viewed as being a nail. The Chinese, like the Russians before them will respond to the growth of western militarism by manufacturing swords and we will be constantly reminded of the need to build more weapons to counter the Chinese threat. |
Breathtaking decision but the correct one.
The French contract was a dogs breakfast. There will be a vocal minority against but I think a majority for the deal. We are already part of the nuclear cycle. We sell uranium. We have a small reactor at Lucas Heights. We welcome Nimitz class carriers routinely. The Greens can get over it. This is quantum leap in capability and I’m a little surprised the yanks would even consider letting us access the Virginia Class. But I sincerely hope they do. China can bleat all they want. NZ is part of the Five Eyes but has given up on being militarily competitive. They haven’t had fast jets for years. Silence would be their best response. |
Wow - they're talking eight boats.
That's a serious commitment. |
LOL a nuclear sub hobbled with conventional weapons.
Somehow I don't think the Chinese are too concerned with this latest development. |
It's like Federation never happened. Australia still behaves like a colonial relic; an outpost of empire from which the mother country(ies) can launch military adventures and source cannon fodder and commodities.
A tragic waste of what could have been a genuinely great nation. A useful distraction though for alleged leaders trying to draw attention away from debacles of own their making like Afghanistan, Brexit and the vaccine "stroll out". The "yellow peril" is still a potent political tool as it was in the 1800's. |
Originally Posted by SevenTwentySeven
(Post 11111860)
LOL a nuclear sub hobbled with conventional weapons.
Somehow I don't think the Chinese are too concerned with this latest development. Not concerned by something that can hang around undetected for two and a half months - possibly loaded out with conventional TLAMs, heavy torpedos, UUVs etc? I imagine they'll have a pretty significant SIGINT suite as well. |
Originally Posted by SevenTwentySeven
(Post 11111860)
LOL a nuclear sub hobbled with conventional weapons.
Somehow I don't think the Chinese are too concerned with this latest development. Not hobbled at all. Extremely, extremely capable. Standing by for a flood of ill-informed opinion. Adam Bandt already living up to expectations. |
Originally Posted by Grumpy retiree
(Post 11111868)
We are talking attack submarines not ballistic missile submarines.
Not hobbled at all. Extremely, extremely capable. Standing by for a flood of ill-informed opinion. Adam Bandt already living up to expectations. RAN takes out a Chinese destroyer with one of these you bewt new subs. 30 minutes later RAAF Tindal is a smoking hole in the ground. If you are going to play with the big boys, carry a bigger stick. This is just embarrassing. |
So... the weapon from the you beaut sub will have a big Ostrayan flag on it will it?
Sheesh... |
Originally Posted by SevenTwentySeven
(Post 11111876)
Ok, let's paint a scenario shall we?
RAN takes out a Chinese destroyer with one of these you bewt new subs. 30 minutes later RAAF Tindal is a smoking hole in the ground. If you are going to play with the big boys, carry a bigger stick. This is just embarrassing. |
Exactly.
If it got to the point where a RAN boat was taking out a Chinese destroyer - I think the Chinese would already have a helluva lot more to worry about than RAAF Tindall. This is all about being part of an alliance at a strategic level - and an orbat at a tactical level. No way we'd be acting alone in a fight. It's a huge development. There are two crown jewels in the special relationship - SIGINT, and nuclear capability. Australia already is an essential partner in terms of SIGINT, and has now been given access to something that only the UK had prior. Very significant indeed in a geopolitical sense. |
I agree with the decision however how many times have we seen bungled purchases by the Govt / DMO? (Collins, Sea-sprite, NH90, French Subs, dare I say F-35's ).
I remember being in Newcastle harbour back in around 1995 ( Nowdays 49% Chinese owned) when the nuclear powered USS John S McCain sailed into the port for a visit, the greenies were all lined up and down the break wall in protest of it being nuclear powered and that the city was going to blow up!
Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
(Post 11111818)
Soundly in favour of it, about time we ditched the (polluting) diesel subs and went nuclear. We are a huge source of uranium, though it will need overseas processing to become fuel rods.
The French contract was a horse's arse, massive modifications to make it sort of suitable, and driven by politicians wanting some of the action in their electorates. Also not delivered till 2035, about 10 years after China takes over Hong Kong and Taiwan and a bunch of other islands in the Philippines and Indonesia. Typical Greens, screeching about explosions in the capital cities. Can we turn them into Soylent Greens? |
The RAN was going to blow $ 90 billion trying to stuff a diesel electric power plant into nuclear sub platform all the while pretending it could somehow come up with a capability similar to , guess what ? , a nuclear submarine.
Ironically the Virginia Class will be cheaper ! Opposition to a nuclear submarine has always been political , not military. A rational solution at last……….. |
One big question is why is US selling submarines to a country like Austria that is landlocked?
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Originally Posted by rjtjrt
(Post 11111889)
One big question is why is US selling submarines to a country like Austria that is landlocked?
The Austro - Hungarians had a navy ! |
But I have lived long enough to know that when we are being told to fear a threat its because someone is waiting in the wings to make loads of money from it. |
Originally Posted by SevenTwentySeven
(Post 11111876)
If you are going to play with the big boys, carry a bigger stick. |
"We will be enhancing our long-range strike capability including Tomahawk cruise missiles to be fielded on the Royal Australian Navy Hobart class destroyers and joint air-to-surface stand-off missiles extended range for our Royal Australian Air Force capabilities," Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison told reporters in Canberra.
Tomahawk missiles too. |
Given the Tomahawk is modular - one would assume that if changing payloads ever became a necessity... it could be done.
Command and control would be an altogether different issue... I see my other homeland to the east has already told the RAN any nuclear powered subs won't be able to visit. |
Originally Posted by tartare
(Post 11111905)
Given the Tomahawk is modular - one would assume that if changing payloads ever became a necessity... it could be done.
Command and control would be an altogether different issue... I see my other homeland to the east has already told the RAN any nuclear powered subs won't be able to visit. |
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