HS780 Andover C1/E3
 

How many Navs did the Andover carry, as standard?

One. In the flight checking role there was also an Air Electronics Officer. All first-class guys with either brevet.

And they did buy the beers occasionally. 🤓

I don't know. Why would it require more than one? :confused:

With a stated crew of 2-3 - presumably pilot, co-pilot and loady - possibly no nav at all? Perhaps the Open Skies aircraft may have carried a dedicated Nav?

I thought that back in the days of 46 Squadron most RAF transports had two navs, and I wondered whether the aircraft had two Nav seats.

As Brevet says, at least for the mighty 115 operations, very happy days working on the best squadron (with the best boss) in the RAF by far (IMHO)

I'm wondering if the AEO occupied what had once been the second nav's position?

46 Sqn - Abingdon Era
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....63f975ae81.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....04fba4a342.jpg

Hey Longer Ron,

That looks like two pilots, a nav, an eng and a loadie?

Hi Jacko
I would not like to be drawn on the crew make up.(I cannot see the Half Wings clearly enough)
AFAIK - they did have 2x NCO Navs as late as Thorney Island.

This 46 sqn 1971 route flight with cargo to Malta/Cyprus has a crew of 2 x Pilots,2 x Navs and 2 x Loadies.
I guess the crew make up might have varied quite a bit depending on tasking.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....56cccbaf6e.jpg

The standard crew of an E3 was 4; 2 pilots, a Nav and an AEO. There was no ALM but the AEOs carried out the duties of Freight Bay Management. I think they were qualified to carry up to 12 pax. If more pax were carried either a second AEO would be carried or an ALM sourced from the OCU or Staneval would help out. The E3As without the IRFIS fitted still had the second nav station fitted.

46 Squadron
 

What a nasty-looking crowd in the newspaper article; would one, for example, buy a used motor car from one in particular? As for a Squadron Commander with a double-barreled name.......? An appropriate post, since it is their time of the year.

No NCO Navigators at Thorney on 46, albeit that one may have moved from Abingdon as an instructor with the Training Squadron. Standard crew one of each, that's four for the innumetate.

In my short time in the RAF (65-73, Herc' nav from 67 ) all transport aircraft had only ONE nav, apart from checks, training and in the case of the Herc', gyro/grid sorties over the pole.

See Terry Boothby (RIP) there, served with him as a Reservist about 30 years ago! Was an LM in his regular days (Brits and '10's also I think).

We had three C2s (HS748) and one C1 (HS780) at Northolt on 32 Squadron. Crews for both types were two pilots, one navigator and one loadmaster. I never saw or heard of a second navigator but there was a crew seat in that forward compartment for the loady as he wasn't allowed to sit with the "guests" for take-off and landing.

So what was the difference between the E3 and the E3A (no IRFIS on the E3A, right?), and between the E3A and a basic C1?

How many C1(PR)s were there? Both the 60 Squadron aircraft, I guess?

Some blasts from the (distant) past in those pictures. Mark Gilson and David Crwys-Williams to name but two. In post #8, Dave Higgs. OC Ops Thorney Island 1970-72

Is Gp. Capt. W. J. Knowles still around with M.E Leggett & Co Ltd?

I would like to join a scheme that will double my money in nine years.

The E3 had the full IRFIS kit and upgraded avionics from the basic C1. The E3A had the all the work required to fit IRFIS including the second nav station, upgraded avionics and electrics etc. They both had the centre tanks fitted (seldom used) not sure if the C1s had the centre tank. Essentially the E3As were in use reserves with the ability to have the IRFIS fitted if there was a major issue with one of the E3s.

Did the E3As have the big light on the front end, Juan?

I don’t think they did, and having done a quick picture search it looks like my memory is good. I am happy to be corrected but from what I remember the big light was for a fall back option in the calibration role if IRFIS failed. It was possible to drop the AEO off with his trusty theodolite and a radio. They would track the light through the theodolite and then compare it to the radar trace of the PAR to assess it. Happy to be corrected or amended by those with better memories.

Didn't 60 Sqn use a Nav when flying out of Wildenrath up the Corridor.

The Pembrokes carried two navigators - one for route navigation and a second to operate the fit. This probably continued when the Andovers arrived. We were aware that there were problems getting the fit to work properly in the Andovers, resulting in the Pembrokes staying in service longer than planned.

When the Andover came into service at Abingdon c 1966 much was made (probably by Hawker Siddeley) of its ‘’kneeling’ undercarriage capability available for loading.
Was it ever much used ?

When the C1’s and E3a’s were sent to 32 Squadron in the early 90’s, they were used mainly as troopers between the UK and Germany, so the knelling wasn’t used. However, when the RAF disposed on them in 1994, I went with XS644 to Kenya to use on aid flights into South Sudan. The kneeeling was used all the time as the strips we were flying into had no facilities apart from manpower.

Scooby

Had a very happy week on detachment from my UAS with 115, just after the Falklands. Very nice bunch of guys, flew a few trips in the old jump seat with a Northern Irish Captain and young Co, who had just come off Vulcans, buggered if I can remember their names. I seemed to remember we had just a Nav onboard ( I do not remember an AEO, but I could be wrong) and I was most surprised that he ran through the check list. Great experience and the memory has stayed with me.

Kneeling...
 

During an Easter vacation from University, 3 of us ULAS students went for a short detachment with 46 Sqn, thanks to my ex-RAFC Flt Cdr ('Chunky') who had gone to 46 as a wheel of some sort.

Fascinating time (apart from that 'suicide corner near Thorney); one trip was a pilot's last one on the squadron. So we flew low level all the way from Thorney to (I think) Prestwick - or it might have been Glasgow. Then over to Benbecula (or was it Stornoway?) to collect some passengers before flying airways to Lyneham.

Lyneham was incredibly busy back then, but we were directed to a parking spot. Then out strode a Plt Off in No 1 uniform with the dreaded red arm band with yellow wheel clutching a clip board. He pointed his brown-gloved finger at the captain and made kneeling gestures with the clip board.... Which was like a red rag to a bull; the flight deck window flew open and the captain asked this 'mover' WTF he wanted. "Kneel the aircraft" was the reply. "No I b***dy well won't", shouted the captain, "I'm shutting down; ***k off and get some Comet steps - they'll fit!".

As the props stopped, the captain told me that unnecessary kneeling was always avoided as it put quite a load on the hydraulics and was only used if there was no other option …"...and not because some jumped up mover wants us to".

The mover failed to find any steps (although we knew there were some), so the passengers were disembarked using a catering truck with a scissor lift.

I learned a lot from that trip - and what a great place Thorney Island was too!

Ah BEagle, I to went to Stornaway (with 115) on the Isle of Lewis, from Brize and then a night stop at Lossie, where IIRC it still looked daylight at around 2am.
I was grabbed in the busy bar by an X UWAS member who was based there, I remember his first name, but won't repeat it here. Nice chap and I wished I spoken to him for longer. I believe he was on Jags there.
I think it was before Lossie we did some low level stuff around the islands and then some calibration at Macrihanish, where I sat in on the ground with the calibration officer and watched 115 do their stuff.
When we were at Stornoway, I ventured into the terminal looking for a mars bar!
There were a number of teenage girls in the terminal, who were most impressed with my olive overalls and white epaulets.
I was suddenly the 19 year old Captain and grew a foot or saw taller.
Happy days!

For BEagle, the Captain sans steps sounds very much in character with one of the nasty iindividuals from the newspaper above. The very same who even now accuses me of causing his being kicked out of Harrods one afternoon many years ago. It really was a lovely afternoon.

Beags,
Do you know if ‘suicide corner’ was formerly known (I was there in ‘64) as ‘no-guts’ corner ? There was a particularly nasty corner, pre breathalyser, on the road en route from Emsworth to Thorney.

There was a nasty adverse camber on that bend.

Scoobytopdog, we had to check the kneeling u/c every month if memory serves correct, yes we used the system for loading freight on & off for the overseas trips we did, seldom any problems with it even at the end, great aircraft to work on.

I don't recall there being any restrictions with regard to kneeling. It was used when required but when steps were avaiable they were used including the wonderful crew ladder. There was an issue if the Captain, whilste doing his walk round "forgot" the aircraft was knelt, as the normal hydraulic selections in the nose gear bay had to be avoided or hydaulic fluid was dumped all over the pan. Which was sub-optimal. Mind you the fuel tanks also tended to do that if it was warm and the "standard" fuel load of 11200 was asked for on a warm day.

The problem with that bend was both the adverse camber and its benign appearance for the unwary. As one of my colleagues proved one evening in his Triumph Herald. Approaching from the Thorny direction he ignored the 'slow' signs and entered too quickly, then braked.... Oversteer, the Herald's swing axle rear suspension and the adverse camber had us out of control and heading for the bondhu at an alarming rate. Fortunately he caught it.....just.

"So I guess 'slow' means 'slow'", quipped my fellow passenger in the back.

Which reminds of the bridge over the railway outside Coltishall. A lot of people didn’t make the 90 left/right either side, especially if they were going too fast and got airborne in the middle.

Not to mention 'cow **** corner' at RAF Leeming before the new road was built! I recall being a passenger in a car sliding sideways around that bend on our way back from Bedale…. I gather it claimed quite a few!

The HS748 Draggies in Australia frequently had 3 navs on board, but then again it was a nav trainer.

I flew them for about 8 years on and off in the RAF. Did the trials on IRFIS.

Standard crew was 2 pilots, one nav. Others depended upon the task; so an AEO for all ILS calibrations and before IRFIS an extra AEO for the Theo talk down which was also required for the PAR. For freight and pax a LM.

The E3A had the big light because it was also used for PAR calibrations and without the big light, the Theo chap couldn't see you at long range.
I left before the Andover PR finally arrived so can't comment on that.