Lots of fantasy in this thread . the title is also misleading . Interception training is done using other military aircraft or special flights. ( Germany for instance uses a small specialized company using Learjets) No need to intercept civil airliners in civil controlled airspace .
Intercepting Concorde a M2.0 at FL600 ? Good luck with that one .
Most interception of civil airliners (over 90% in Western Europe I would guess) are due to loss of comms, and most of these are just finger trouble, wrong digit tuned or forgot the google switch. Expensive mistakes specially since some States are reported to send the bill to the airlines .involved. But verifying /intercepting radio failures is a standard normal routine procedure in many places right now, Get used to it.

That's why I put the question mark in the title. But yes, a comm loss may have happened to FR-9026.

The link in the first post categorically rejects Slovak media reports that the aircraft suffered a loss of communication, but then goes on to say that it "does not rule out a loss of communication and possibly [sic] an intercept".

So that's cleared that up, then.

I am wondering if that is the D*** G****** that I knew some considerable time back in RAFG

It was standard practice in the 70's for civil aircraft to be used for Practice Intercepts (as said in an earlier post the civil aircraft could put /EMBELLISH in the RMK/ field of the flight plan to 'volunteer') but usually the intercepts were radar intercepts and the civil aircraft crew and pax would be unaware of being used as a target as the intercept was broken off well before visual range - though sometimes less successfully with head on PIs :}. However, the entire attitude then was different to these operations and there was often exchanges of repartee between civil crew and Eastern Radar in particular. Crews both civil and military seemed to actually enjoy what they were doing back then.

ATC Watcher
If it was a Lightning intercept it would have to be in the close to the UK coast due to their limited range. Concorde was not allowed to accelerate to supersonic until clear of land so a Lightning would have no problem 'keeping up'. From very early in the Lightning existence back in the 1960's it was used for PIs up to 65,000ft with PIs against U2's

Ian W : Many hanks for that link , very good reference , but as far as I know ( I have no F6-Lightning experience but seen dozens of intercepts of more modern types on the Radar ) there is a huge difference in intercepting an aircraft at FL600 doing M.07 on a fixed track ( as a U2 would do ) and one doing Mach2 0 . I would even dare to say impossible , I do not know the exact on site endurance of the Lightning in Hot configuration ( i.e armed with no extra tanks) with reheat to get to his max speed M2.2. up to 65.000ft , but my guess is in single minutes, probably less than 5., and with a speed difference of M.02 not a chance unless you have a bloody good controller on the ground and good luck that the target will not change course while you climb up there.
Intercept at 36.000ft , it is already very limited : from wikipedia :
.

I would say if a Concorde was ever intercepted by a F6 it was subsonic and at less than 30.000 ft.. So basically a non-event.

Well you are comparing an intercept at FL600 to a more likely intercept at FL350-400 over the SW approaches or the North Sea. Also though remember that Concorde was more constrained in its routing than the U2 so not so difficult to set up something. But yes it was not uncommon at Lightning units to have several Lightnings recovering with less than 10 minutes fuel. It kept everyone on their toes

Apologies for the thread drift

Quite apart from a lot of what is appearing here sounding more than a little fanciful, I would imagine that if anyone barrel rolled around any intercept target, let alone a civil airliner, let alone Concorde, it would be the last flight in a military aircraft they ever made...

I remember 'Embellish' procedures in the Lon Mil Radar operating procedures; as Farnborough was mentioned in them we had a full copy.

The late Brian Lecomber told me he did it once.
He was flying a Fokker Triplane replica in uncontrolled airspace south of Stansted and had the Stansted frequency tuned, so he heard an aircraft descending below controlled airspace near him.
He spotted it, pulled up and barrel rolled round it.
Then he heard 'Stansted, I've just been beaten up from below by a Fokker Triplane'!

I was flying Air France between Paris and Madrid some 15 years ago, when I just happened to look out of the window and a bright orange aircraft (Alphajet?) flew within 50 feet, left to right and over the top of us. A blink and you miss it event.

I did speak to the Captain, who was totally unaware.

The Libyan MiG-23 Flogger that crashed in Italy may simply have been an accident. See following with input from a colleague of the MiG-23 pilot.

The Final Flight of Ezzedin Khalil - A 1980 MiG crash wasn't as mysterious as some people believe

https://warisboring.com/the-final-fl...zzedin-khalil/

Teeej
 

Thanks for posting

Out of service in 1988, not 1978.

Actually a barrel roll is a great lag maneuver in case one overshoots the intercepted target. Misjudge the closure speed and you can still save the intercept by doing a barrel roll. If you do it early enough, you might even be able to maintain radar lock.

No problem! :ok:

First the rules - in the list of types of types of aircraft forbidden to be used for a target in practice intercepts was a clear line item - “passenger carrying aircraft”. I used to get calls from ex-military captains saying they had put embellished in their flight plans but having to refuse unless they were freight only.

However, it was a rule prolifically broken. Back in the 1970s Air Anglia in and out of Norwich we’re outraged if they weren't intercepted - it was one reason many flew with them. The QRA when scrambled to north of Saxa awaiting Bears which went elsewhere would intercept transatlantic traffic to pass the time - the ****, as they say, hitting the fan when one crew sent in their MISREP claiming an intercept on a Korean 747 just a few months after the Russian shooting down of Korean Flight 007. The British sense of humour not going down well at SHAPE.

We would also scramble and intercept the charity BA flights with orphans at Xmas at their request. “And if you look out the left hand windows kiddies you’ll see a live armed RAF F-4!”

There were also numerous intercepts during exercises when real targets were in short supply. The order “target xxx range xxx, intercept with caution” being the indication that it was civil flight and to intercept accordingly. The tacit rules being that 1000ft separation would be kept so that it could explained as merely being in the same area rather than an intercept. Though comments from pilots such as “Identified, SAS DC-9, and there’s a woman in a red dress four windows from the back waving at me”, did tend to indicated the rules weren’t being observed. (The Lightning didn’t have Mode-C)

Reference the Concorde. I controlled a few of these intercepts in the short window in which they took place. Concorde flew a figure of eight in the North Sea at a constant M2.0 with the height varying around FL560-580 to hold a constant speed. The intercepts were mainly done by the CY and LU F-4s from nominated CAP points for a frontal shot, with obviously no stern conversion! The BK Lightnings also had a CAP point. The approved profile was also frontal with no stern conversion - accelerate at the tropopause for a 150 intercept, pull for a lead Redtop solution on the port missile, roll through 180 to reveal and fire the starboard missile and pull through to descend.

There was an occasion when a Lightning had a radio failure on reaching the CAP and did not abort. The pilot committed at the planned the time and did 180 stern intercept and claimed a kill. This obviously involved penetrating the MRSA whilst not under radar control. What height he achieved in the stern (Mx having a substantial height window) and whether it would have managed to reach the target is moot.

For interest the standard Lightning high flying supersonic stern target profile was, IIRC, the U3A. Target at M1.8 at FL560* for a 180 x 26 intercept converting to a 90 x 8 with the fighter accelerating to M2.0 in the crossing leg for a 1nm roll out.

*The legal Lightning ceiling was FL560 for flying clothing/oxygen mask reasons. Though it was routinely broken, with aircraft, especially in the last few months, exceeding 60K by up to 20K.

The French also used to send their Mirage IVs up as targets during exercises. We would be tipped of by LATCC as they headed north up the North Sea on their tanker and scramble a Lightning F-6 to do a frontal intercept as they headed south at M2.0. On one occasion Wattisham messed up and scrambled an F-3 with Firestreak. He was given a 180 intercept and rolled out at 3nm, closing to 1nm for the kill before, from M2+ and 60K heading south just north of B1, diverting into Coltishall because he had insufficient fuel to make Wattisham. Memory grows dim but I believe the pilot was S**** M******.

Believe done on basis that Gadaffi was supposed to be on board. So the rumour goes.

no info from Cabin Crew on the flight, but maybe the camera man asked after the flight?

I hope the missile fire button was working better than the exclamation mark key on your keyboard, newt.

On a Brymon Dash 8 flight from Bristol to Edinburgh (as pax), I saw a high speed red and yellow aircraft travel above us perpendicular to our course. At that time could only have been a Meteor from Llanbedr (Or a Jindivik, but I doubt that!)

Ex Priory v Concorde and Mirage IV
 

ORAC
Good post on a fantasy thread. But the mystery F3 Lightning pilot was DF. He'd taken a stern shot but was determined to get some "guns film" and was prepared to divert to Colt to get it. He did not suffer a radio failure, the Lightning seldom did. In fact Colt gave him a sit-in turn around and had him back on cap within 30mins.
NEWT
Good luck with the new keyboard.
"Newt, downwind exclamation mark".......
"Sorry that should be: downwind full stop"

Minnie, you are confusing two separate occasions.

The radio failure was a BK Ltg intercepting Concorde. The WT Ltg intercept and diversion I discussed was intercepting a FAF Mirage IV several years previously.

Thanks ORAC. I stand corrected.

Back in the late 60’s it was extremely unlikely that any armed (QRA) aircraft would intercept a civil aircraft excepting ‘the unidentified’. One notable quip was a real QRA against an unknown incoming; the ident was broadcast as an MD80, to which the ground reply was ‘how do you know that’ - “ because it’s written on the side of the aircraft” !

There were also some no-notice QRA flights - often unidentified returning ELINT, no dip clearance etc. More often these were terminated as ‘we now have identification, rtb’, or rarely after ident (coded broadcast), the type was not to be disclosed.

Probably one of the pre-production aircraft out of Filton then, as BA didn't operate its first Concorde PAX flight until late January 1976, or it was one of BA's pre-service crew training flights, asIIRC, 111 gave up its Lightnings in Sept '74 and 56 gave up its Lightnings in June '76.

Concorde did many of its supersonic trial flights during 1975/1976 under control of the UKADGE. They didn’t want to have frequent frequency changes and we set up a common frequency shared by Neatishead, Boulmer, Buchan, Saxa Vord and Benbecula.

Concorde would be handed over to Neatishead coating out over East Anglia and be cleared to climb and go high speed heading north and would then be handed from controller to controller as they flew a large loop north of Sax and then back down the Irish Sea. I never saw or controlled anyone trying an intercept against them, but it is possible.

I did control one flight in a weekend when Boulmer wasn’t manned and the controller at Buchan had a U/S radio, so they called the Saxa controller to their Ops room - and all the time Concorde was heading north at 20nm a minute. I eventually handed them over just about abeam Aberdeen - I was just thankful they were at FL600.

I remember the first such trial, which was controlled by one of the old Warrant Officer controllers. The crew had been told to call Neatishead and obviously knew nothing about the names and locations of the AD radar sites as, after they checked and were cleared to accelerate they asked him to spell Neatishead and then when quiet for a couple of minutes as they tried, and failed, to find it on their flight documents. They then asked him for our location and, gleefully echoing the words of the FC recruiting film of the day, solemnly replied we were, “An Air Defence radar site, somewhere on the east coast of England”.....

ORAC wrote: F-4s from pre-pongo Wattisham intercepted the AirUK 'Norwich flyer' on many occasions. Which when 'Bondage' and I were on the way home from yet another boring JMC debrief in the early '80s was rather embarrassing as we were in the AirUK F-27 and were intercepted by an F-4 from our own squadron. But the delightful CC were feeding us with large G&Ts at the time and though it all rather amusing...

Not an intercept, but operating the F27 Norwich to Humberside we frequently found ourselves occupying the same airspace as the FJ people. I recall one day being told by the controller "the best avoiding action I can give you is a 360 degree turn"

A Lightning F3 managed to make a stern intercept on a Concorde over the North Sea on 2nd April 1985 at Mach 2.2 at 57,000 feet. The pilot Mike Hale has written about it and the claim is backed up by an entry in the 11 Squadron ORB for that month. The fighter controller who set up the intercept is mentioned in the RAF Boulmer ORB. plus the fact that Boulmer controlled two Concorde v Lightning sorties that month. One interesting note in the Boulmer ORB is the route of the Concorde on the Hale Sortie. Moscow to Edinburgh. G-BOAC definitely landed at Edinburgh that day according to a spotters website and a Concorde did do a charter flight with passengers to Moscow on the 12th April 1985, so I suspect BA did do a trial flight to Moscow first. It would be interesting to know what the Concorde's route was.

Well to reach the speed I would have thought it must have gone north and coasted out around the Kola peninsula, did a supersonic flight down the Norwegian Sea into the North Sea before decelerating and turning right to land at Edinburgh. Boulmer would have down the intercept they did all the BK high flying intercepts. I presume the F3 would held and come off a tanker in TTL 5 or 6.

Things don't always go as planned. Airborne from Coningsby with a Flt Cdr nav in the back, to to be honest not the sharpest tool in the rack. Brief was for a bog standard head on Fox 1 with stern conversion. Good long range pick up to F1, as we began the stern conversion I suggested he looked out at the DC 9 we had just splashed.