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Originally Posted by Lordflasheart
(Post 10552793)
...
Dear Pr oo ne, I’m fascinated …. I wasn’t in the RAF, and it would take me a while to assemble a proper list, but ….. OTTOMH I can’t think of a single year since 1945 when some of our military aviators were not facing a real risk of being shot at or having to shoot up some other SOB, with the purpose of making him die for his country, rather than our guys dying for mine (and yours.) Even if there was no actual shooting, surely you cannot be unaware that many more of our chaps ‘died for our country’ just practicing for the actualite. It doesn’t really matter what they thought when they volunteered (or were conscripted), by the time they were qualified, most of them would have realised what might happen during their service, and continued serving in that clear knowledge. The few who did not like that thought, were sensible and left. And my great respect to them for doing so. So please forgive me for suggesting that you (you did write “we” - and “there was never any risk”) must have had a very sheltered “-RAF FJ” (your profile claim) existence. Knowing (by honest and/or genuine repute, if not personally) several of the chaps you are word-jousting with, as a matter of honour, I really could not let this history-jousting go without some kind of challenge. So could I please politely inquire as to what time scale or “-RAF FJ” position you had in mind for your “fact” that “we” (whoever you are) “never had to do it for real, and there was never any risk of having to do it for real.” Yours respectfully, .......... LFH nb crossed with wiggy and LB - same sentiments. ... As I have said previously, I was referring to the difference between the current, as in 2019, crop of FJ aircrew and my generation, which was late 60's early 70's, and I was doing it to praise the current mob and express my admiration for them. I'm sorry, but whilst not wishing to downplay the exploits of the SH lot in NI and the exploits of the AT folks during the period, my generation never woke up in the morning knowing that we were going to be outbriefing to fly against REAL SAMs, fighters, AAA that were going to be doing their best to kill us, with a sterile check against being captured and all that may have entailed FOR REAL. I rehearsed and practised it endlessly, but we never had to do it for real and we knew it. |
Disturbingly, I find myself agreeing with Pr00ne on this subject. This thread started with a TV programme about FJ training so FJ is what we are discussing. I know that throughout the Cold War, lots of fleets were “doing it for real”. SH in NI, various AT roles, Nimrods (as they never ceased to remind us) etc.. In the FJ world we stood Q, both nuclear and AD, but deep down we ( or I at least) never thought it would turn into a shooting war. I was a FJ back seater during the Cold War. My son is a current FJ aviator, and I can tell you that there is a world of difference between our two worlds. Whilst my generation lost an obscene number of people to accidents I submit that is not the same as spending hours and hours over parts of the world where you have the likes of Taliban or ISIS waiting fir you on the ground, and where delivering weapons on them is an everyday occurrence. I freely admit that, as a fluke of timing and posting I never did it for real. If, during that period others did; good for them. PS. My credentials: Nav 1972-2000 Vulcans, Buccaneers, Tornado GR1 4000 hours Never dropped a bomb in anger. |
In the early time-scale under discussion by pr00ne, the RAF had no Fast Jets that I recall, only fighters, bombers, transports and trainers. Oh, and helicopters. In the early 60s, Hunters were involved on active operations in the Middle East and the Far East.
On 1st March 1961, Air Forces, Middle East was formed as the RAF element in a new unified command, Middle East Command. The resident Hunter squadrons were kept busy flying ground attack operations against insurgents from Yemen. Later in 1961, Iraq made its first rumblings about taking over Kuwait, which asked for support from UK. The RAF pulled its Middle East Hunter FGA9 Squadrons (8 & 43) from Aden and 208 from Kenya to the Gulf, and eventually Gulf War minus 1 did not become active. But my guess is that the pilots believed that they were about to go active on each sortie they flew during that period. I believe that Lightnings were also involve from Saudi, with some seconded RAF pilots. Even two UK-based Hunter squadrons, 1 and 54, were involved by their pilots flying replacement aircraft to the Gulf-based squadrons. In the first half of the 60s, RAF Hunters, and I believe Javelins, were flown on operations against Indonesian regular and irregular forces during Confrontation. I guess that there was a tightening of the muscles of the FGA pilots when they set up their live attack runs at targets in the jungle. I know of at least two awards of the DFC for operations under fire, but these were to helicopter pilots. There is no doubt that the Cold War warriors did their duty. However, the question, "What did you do in the war, daddy", will have the response, "Which war do you mean?" from the survivors of several overseas adventures. |
For those getting upset about the chap who said he had a problem with authority, I watched it again, and he actually says "I wouldn't say I have a problem with authority" albeit the important "n't" is quite faint,
he then goes on to say, however he likes to go and de-stress on his windsurfer, so is actually to be commended for having that kind of mindset, suck it up at work and blow off steam after. Some of you need to crank up the old hearing aids before pressing the outrage button |
Originally Posted by Wwyvern
(Post 10555232)
In the early time-scale under discussion by pr00ne, the RAF had no Fast Jets that I recall, only fighters, bombers, transports and trainers. Oh, and helicopters. In the early 60s, Hunters were involved on active operations in the Middle East and the Far East.
On 1st March 1961, Air Forces, Middle East was formed as the RAF element in a new unified command, Middle East Command. The resident Hunter squadrons were kept busy flying ground attack operations against insurgents from Yemen. Later in 1961, Iraq made its first rumblings about taking over Kuwait, which asked for support from UK. The RAF pulled its Middle East Hunter FGA9 Squadrons (8 & 43) from Aden and 208 from Kenya to the Gulf, and eventually Gulf War minus 1 did not become active. But my guess is that the pilots believed that they were about to go active on each sortie they flew during that period. I believe that Lightnings were also involve from Saudi, with some seconded RAF pilots. Even two UK-based Hunter squadrons, 1 and 54, were involved by their pilots flying replacement aircraft to the Gulf-based squadrons. In the first half of the 60s, RAF Hunters, and I believe Javelins, were flown on operations against Indonesian regular and irregular forces during Confrontation. I guess that there was a tightening of the muscles of the FGA pilots when they set up their live attack runs at targets in the jungle. I know of at least two awards of the DFC for operations under fire, but these were to helicopter pilots. There is no doubt that the Cold War warriors did their duty. However, the question, "What did you do in the war, daddy", will have the response, "Which war do you mean?" from the survivors of several overseas adventures. 1961 was FIFTY EIGHT years ago! The RAF I joined most certainly had fast jets, Group One it was called I think. We called them Fast Jets. The groundcrew called them Jets. The RAF pulled out of Aden in 1967, confrontation was over in 1967 too. The Cold War era I referred to was in Germany and the UK and it was hard work, challenging and bloody good fun, but nobody was shooting at us or trying to capture and kill us. The RAF FJ world has been on active real world operations constantly since 1991. They fly for real, they do it for real. They join up knowing that. They train knowing that. That is a vastly different world from the era of Tacevals, Minivals, Maxevals , STCAAME and 2 TAF Weapons competitions that was my lot. I am NOT trying to deride my generation. You play the hand you are dealt. I was just a bit miffed at all the doddery old hands who were derisively having a go at the current generation they see portrayed in this TV series. I am just mightily impressed by the current RAF FJ aircrew and all those who have served since 1990. |
Pr oo ne
I knew what you meant anyway. I agree that the current generation are doing a fine job. And are taught by very capable instructors. I have been perceived as having a go at the older generation as well. That was not my intent either. Nobody should think they can throw spears at a group of people and not expect return fire. All generations have done and are doing a great job. They just may appear to be very different from each other when viewed on TV. Anyway, let’s see what tonight’s episode brings. BV |
Originally Posted by pr00ne
(Post 10554994)
Langleybaston,
Oh, for fastjet aircrew or our equivalent, 1946 to 1981 and 1983 to 1990. The nuclear armed Canberras in RAFG, and the V Force, were fairly fast and faced a very real threat every time the hooter went. My first two tours in RAFG were certainly not for the faint-hearted, as the invasion of Czecho by the Warsaw Pact demonstrated. |
Pr00ne
It is a bit unreasonable for you to have a go at Wyvern, after all you gave the dates 1946-81 as a period when nothing nasty happened in the FJ world and as he pointed out there were plenty of Hunter pilots wondering what would happen to them if they banged-out over Aden. It is probably not well known that some 25-30 RAF pilots flew Sabres with the USAF in Korea. Quite a bit went on in the period you gave. Timelord I too 'begat' a FJ pilot son - he was on the Jag' OCU during GW1 but saw plenty of action over Bosnia and N Iraq between then and '97 when he went off to Lossie as an instructor. After he did the TP Course in 2000/01 he went to Boscombe and then talked his boss into letting him get CR ready again over N Iraq. I told him he was off his rocker - he now had a wife and 3 children at home, why put yourself in harm's way? After all he had nothing to prove! But then he never did take any notice of what his dad said! Incidentally we tried steering his younger brother towards a career in the RAF, but one day he announced he could not do what his brother did i.e. fly over hostile territory - 'Neither could I' I replied, so he followed me into civil ATC where he is paid well, has loads of time-off and doesn't have to put up with a lot of the crap associated with service life. Flugplatz No offence taken or meant! Sadly so many people on PPRuNe these days just want to have a falling-out - all so bloody unnecessary! |
Brian 48nav,
Fair point. 46 to 81 was indeed a bit steep, I was really referring to the RAF I knew which was late 60's and early 70's. langleybaston, Sorry, the nuclear armed Canberra's in RAFG did NOT face a threat as they never ever took off! The hooters were all for exercise, never for real. I was on nuclear QRA, dying of boredom was the only threat I ever faced. When the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia there was never even the slightest concern that they were going to cross the border, and they went out of their way to make sure that Western Intelligence knew that. I agree that life in RAFG was at times hectic and busy. But at no stage did I ever feel that I was going to be shot down, captured or tortured. |
Also, early 70's was Belize and the Harriers. Nasty lot just over the border who were not averse to setting jungle fires upwind of the "base". Ever tried getting a mobile AR1 on its wheels and pushing it away from the oncoming flames?
IG |
At the risk of starting some 'my war was more serious than yours' drift, in 1990 I was sprung from being a UAS QFI back to captaining the VC10K, as a reinforcement crew for GW1. So I found myself in KKIA as the shooting war started in January-which included a fair number of Scud attacks...
On about Day3, I was getting ready to go in to fly when we had another air raid warning. Then the usual boom-thump as the Patriot battery hoofed off their rockets. But soon after, my room-mate announced that they'd just tannoyed 'NBC Black'... "It's Black", he yelled. I was contemplating my knees on the porcelain throne at the time, so replied "I doubt it - but it's certainly Black in here!". NBC state was soon downgraded - it seems someone had driven a truck too close to a CAM, which after one sniff of the exhaust went nuts. But the alternative NBC detectors were still chirping happily in their cage (yes, really - a pair of LPO'd canaries!), so the excellent Kiwi Ground Defence Cdr realised the 20th century kit wasn't as reliable. Good chap that Kiwi Warrant Officer - he once said to OC KKIA "Sir, perhaps you ought to arrest me now - because if that idiot doesn't shut up, I'm going to deck him!". He was referring to a panicking Sqn Ldr mover who thought he knew more about Ground Defence matters than he did - merely because he was a Sqn Ldr...:rolleyes: And now back to our regular broadcast! |
Only just caught up with the first one. I actually thought it was good. Yes there’s more “ mate “ , “ buddy “ than in older times, but the young instructor looked about 25 and the studies about 20 ( other than the poor bugger who’d taken 9 years to get that far ). And it’s Generation Y/Z of course. Id have liked a bit more gen on the F35 training prior to Bally’s solo, as they didn’t mention that it’s a single seater , and seeing the sim would have been of interest. I’m sure they’ll do a fine job either way. |
Quote:
The hooters were all for exercise, Not true. I was on night duty at EDUO when the hooter went for Czecho. ... any Int shared with the West had not filtered very far down. |
langleybaston,
But nobody flew, nobody was scrambled and nobody faced a threat. Defence cuts continued, down sizing was not halted and don't forget that the 1968 RAFG had NO conventional attack capability whatsoever, it was pure Nuclear QRA, recce and AD. The conventional capability only arrived with the F-4, Harriers and Buccaneers in 1970. |
Originally Posted by pr00ne
(Post 10555588)
But nobody flew, nobody was scrambled and nobody faced a threat.
Bit of an important point that, I'd say. |
hoodie,
The only option was nuclear in Germany in 1968. I bet folk DID know that they weren't going anywhere. |
I believe that 19 and 92 Lightnings manning Battleflight at Gutersloh policed the IGB fully armed. Nobody who was scrambled knew what he would find.
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In the 1950's and early 60's all RAFG Battle flight aircraft flew fully armed. This gave rise to a near blue on blue when I think a 14 or 20 Sqdn. Hunter fired a short burst at his buddy but fortunately missed.
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From 58 to 61 13 Sqn had a monthly milk run out of Aden. Mocha-Hodeida-Sana-Taiz. There was nothing they had to trouble us but it would have been a long walk home if things went wrong. In the 61 Iraq- kuwait confrontation 13 flew numerous sorties over Iraq. I was on my way home by then but my nav got caught up in it. |
Things have changed a bit re tanking since my day. Into the waiting position, references, bit of power and 'jobs a gudun' It now seem you have a 'mad stab' and if you miss perform DACT with the tanker...
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Just watched episode 2 ( will have to catch up on # 1).. It was a pretty good effort all round ; excellent aerial shots , a likeable bunch of guys and gal , commentary not over the top , nice nostalgia (RAF Valley , and what looked like the good old A5 pass recovery to same ) . AAR brought back memories of similar embarrassing misses ; credit to the producers for highlighting that even the aces get it wrong at times ; they could have shown edited shots of a first time in prod .
Re Hawk ACT , I do wonder about the distractions of those aural warnings in the middle of a dogfight . In the old days on the Jag , out in the desert , the main distraction in air combat was the stall warning ; we usually turned it off (non standard of course) . Also marvel at all that stuff floating around in the Hawk HUD ; have to hand it to the folks making head or tails of that lot . The LCOSS on the F4 was about all any fighter pilot should be asked to look through . Looking forward to # 3. |
I must admit I've enjoyed it up to now, and agree it's for the wider audience rather than us lot.
On the related subjects that have surfaced as a result (from a non aircrew perspective): Agreed that today's generation are more likely to fly operationally, but remember in Cold War days normal flying was hazardous enough. As a young airman (ATC/Ops) in the 80s/90s it seemed that hardly a week went by without SAROPs On in UK or there was news of RAFG losing a jet.. OK, we were a bigger air force then but cold war flying was not without risk. I was fortunate during my career to spend the majority of my career on Squadrons operating in a variety of roles, either as a posting or OOA. I never worked with the maritime fleet or AD but did do time with Tornado GR1/4, Jaguar, C130, Chinook, VC10 AAR and SAR Seaking Squadrons. All fleets were different but there was a noticeable difference in the way crews spoke and interacted with one another and non flying types. The way a Tornado GR1 Sqn in 1987 went about its day to day business was markedly different at all levels to a Tornado GR4 Sqn in 2007. I could talk and interact with the guys (and girls) in 2007 in a totally different way to 1987, admittedly partly due to rank but the respect was always there. Times change. |
Enjoyed the content but the repitition in the commentary is doing my head in. Every time we jump locations and after every break. "Knock it off"
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Originally Posted by DODGYOLDFART
(Post 10555694)
In the 1950's and early 60's all RAFG Battle flight aircraft flew fully armed. This gave rise to a near blue on blue when I think a 14 or 20 Sqdn. Hunter fired a short burst at his buddy but fortunately missed.
You are of course right about Battle Flight QRA, that WAS for real as were every equivalent before and since, but they have never resulted in anything remotely resembling deadly combat. And I have to agree that the hooter going in 1968 WOULD have created a sense of urgency and alarm, of course. My point that I have struggled to make, and inadvertently set off this chain about alerts etc, concerns the current and recent post 1990 generation of FJ aircrew and the vastly different real world ops scenario that they face that was totally unknown to my generation. That is all. |
The Hooter. Waddington, early 80s, and the hooter went for a Station exercise. Things happened as they should, but at the debrief one of the Sqn Cdrs observed that it had taken him a considerable time to determine it was 'only an exercise'. The Stn Cdr replied, "And what difference should that have made?" Embarrassed silence ensued.
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Attaching a `wig`,black,blonde,or red ,to the basket will usually improve the chances when tanking......
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Enjoyed the programme, however;
When was AAR one of the most dangerous aspects of fast jet flying? AAR used to be very much the domain of the Air Defence squadrons until the late 80s when every tactical squadron was expected to be AAR Qualified (if aircraft were AAR capable) I must agree with, Things have changed a bit re tanking since my day. Into the waiting position, references, bit of power and 'jobs a gudun' It now seem you have a 'mad stab' and if you miss perform DACT with the tanker. I tried to listen carefully to the ACT action but found the instruction difficult to follow. I loved the fact that aircraft on sticks are still a valid teaching tool. I would have thought that the Educators would have insisted on something more up to date? There was great emphasis on "flying to the buffet" which is great to gain a feel as to the aircraft's performance. I was, however, surprised that the T2 has no Audio AoA. I assume that F35 has Audio AoA as it is such a benefit when performing the aircraft close to limits. I thought that some of the Audio Warnings were distracting. What does the "Avionics" warning mean. Also, was the "Traffic" warning for the bandit or was there conflicting traffic in the area? What ever happened to the RAF Bubble which was 1000ft head and beam, 500ft in the stern? A gripe to the film makers, continuity in places is very poor. Countless times, lining up as a single on the Centre-line and then showing a pairs takeoff. In the text box for R/T showing Maverick 2, 2 instead of Maverick 22. Small details but whey do RAF PR not ensure that it is correct? |
Takeaways so far: T2 avionics are sh*te and the Lightning is far too complicated for us mere mortals.
A gripe to the film makers, continuity in places is very poor |
Originally Posted by Phantom Driver
(Post 10555726)
J
Re Hawk ACT , I do wonder about the distractions of those aural warnings in the middle of a dogfight . |
I believe the audio warnings are in the name of flight safety.
Anyway watched this episode, and as ever a minority of the old and bold are, well, raging at clouds and shouting for the kids to get off the lawn. I've nothing but admiration for all the pilots shown - I certainly couldn't do their job, |
Anybody else notice that for some reason they decided to obscure the serial numbers on all the Hawks?
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Where do I start?!
I haven’t seen the episode yet so can’t comment on some aspects. I also haven’t engaged in AAR for quite a few years so I’ll leave that to more current individuals. Dead pan The Hawk T2 avionics are bloody great. I don’t know which aspects of the programme made you say that they are ****e but from someone with 1000+ T2 hours I can assure you that is not the case. Davef68 I personally prefer people not to use the bingo warning (hearing is the first thing to go when people are maxed out and if you are waiting to hear an audio warning to remind you to check fuel that is bad practice). Dominator The T2 AoA audio is only active with the gear down. I wouldn’t want to have to listen to it during air combat (the Jag had one but then buffet wasn’t such a reliable medium and the effects of over AoA’ing were so dramatic I wouldn’t want to chance it anyway). As for ‘avionics’ warnings, they are usually generated by the TCAS tripping off as it’s attitude or AoB limits are breached, ie in every dynamic manoeuvre. ‘Traffic’ warnings are from other formation members. Annoying yes, but since the Moray Firth accident it is very hard to convince a duty holder that TCAS should ever be set to standby whilst airborne. Could you imagine if formation members collided and the SI reported that the collision avoidance system had deliberately been turned off?! I’m not saying I agree with the stance but them’s the rules. As I said, I haven’t seen the episode in question so I don’t know why you question the RAF bubble. And yes, fighting sticks are still the best teaching tool for BFM/ACM. As for editing issues, that is beyond my remit to comment. Annoying, perhaps, but hardly worth getting your panties in a knot over. BV |
Originally Posted by XR219
(Post 10556119)
Anybody else notice that for some reason they decided to obscure the serial numbers on all the Hawks?
As an outsider with some knowledge of the system looking in at this process and having a son who is on the inside looking out ( almost at F-35 training) we as a family thoroughly enjoy this insight into what he does. The trainee pilots come across very well and on the whole it is as good as you will get from a program that has to strike the right balance with the viewers. I take my hat off to all involved, the instructors, the support teams but especially the young trainees who are dedicating vast amounts of time and effort into achieving their aims. 7-9 years quoted from start to F-35 and the threat of getting chopped hanging over them at almost every turn; Now that is dedication. Looking forward to episode 3. |
The F-35B segments were very interesting, although the 'difficulty' of AAR was rather overplayed. Given that there's no 2-sticker, even after the best brief there is, single seat AAR will at first inevitably involve an element of 'teach yourself jousting'. The only Fast Jet I ever saw being downright dangerous was a Luftwaffe Tornado ECR, who I nearly sent home. After some inter-Tornado chat on their back boxes out in echelon, he was adequate the next time. It turned out that he was their boss, who hadn't actually attended the brief!
The Valley segment was better than in the first episode, but emphasis on pass/fail criteria was probably only there to keep the programme makers happy? What was VERY interesting was the radical change in ACM teaching. I was lucky enough to have done TWU on the Hunter at Brawdy and later a further TWU on the Hawk T1 at Chivenor. In those 4 - 5 years, ACM teaching had changed radically, but was still 'guns-centric'. Whereas the T2 teaching is in a wholly new league and the benefit of mission debrief replay is huge. It seem to be very much more fluid with missile parameters rather than guns perhaps being the goal. No more 'base height brawls', grunting away on opposite sides of a circle on the buffet nibble for the other aircraft to make an error - now it's clearly aimed at Typhoon / F-35B ops. Quite rightly. I'd love to have a go - who wouldn't! But missing a Bingo.... :eek: The Hawk T1 had a simple enough fuel gauging system, so I cannot imagine that it is worse in the T2. Don't fall off your perch, BV, but I agree with your comment! Towards the end of my Hunter TWU, we were having a fairly busy 2v2 session out over the Bristol Channel in 4 single seat jets. Hunter fuel gauges were useless in manoeuvre, so fuel awareness was essential. As we finished the last bout, one of my colleagues called a 'Bingo minus' call as he'd failed to keep tabs - so back we went at range speed, he was told to land first....and was off the course soon afterwards. |
Yup continuity was rubbish. But the program was better than last week.
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Originally Posted by XR219
(Post 10556119)
Anybody else notice that for some reason they decided to obscure the serial numbers on all the Hawks?
CG |
Anybody else notice that for some reason they decided to obscure the serial numbers on all the Hawks? |
What is the purpose of paying and training someone for 7+ years, and then cutting them at the very last step?
Beyond "tradition" and "it didn't do me any harm" that is? |
In the text box for R/T showing Maverick 2, 2 instead of Maverick 22. Overall having only seen episode 2, I thought it came over as a good PR effort for the RAF. Slightly annoying that Grey Funnel Line’s finest are still referred to as THE HMS Queen Elizabeth though... |
TT
If I had known that all it took was an errant ‘the’ to annoy Navy types I would have been at it years ago. All this time I’ve been referring to floors/doors/kitchens/toilets (decks/bulkheads/galley/heads) and calling everything that drives in or on the water a boat. I could have saved so much effort by just saying the HMS Arkroyal etc. BV PS. BEagle. I have noted the date. The day we agreed on something! 🤣 PPS. Edited due to misunderstanding a previous post and being unnecessarily harsh! |
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