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Originally Posted by Wander00
(Post 10552571)
Did a stude actually say it had taken NINE years to get form attestation to Valley - is that all I the training machine or is he a transfer fro another branch or commissioned from airman service. If true makes a nonsense of the age limitations for entry to aircrew training
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Originally Posted by pr00ne
(Post 10552084)
Jindabyne, I stand by what I said as it is factual. We never had to do it for real, and there was never any risk of having to do it for real. That is not the case today, so why on earth you think that attitude contemptible is beyond me. Sorry if you can’t handle the truth, |
Originally Posted by pr00ne
(Post 10551548)
And do the job is so significant. My generation only ever practiced, we never did it for real.
That is in no way meant to trivialise what current men and women in the front line now do - and TBH as an ex driver, F-4, Air Defence, with a vague understanding of a B-Scope , I'd give my right thingy 'ollcky thing to have a go in the F-35. |
never for real ..... never any risk ...
...
I stand by what I said as it is factual. We never had to do it for real, and there was never any risk of having to do it for real. About pr00ne - Biography - Ex-RAF FJ driver turned lawyer I’m fascinated …. I wasn’t in the RAF, and it would take me a while to assemble a proper list, but ….. OTTOMH I can’t think of a single year since 1945 when some of our military aviators were not facing a real risk of being shot at or having to shoot up some other SOB, with the purpose of making him die for his country, rather than our guys dying for mine (and yours.) Even if there was no actual shooting, surely you cannot be unaware that many more of our chaps ‘died for our country’ just practicing for the actualite. It doesn’t really matter what they thought when they volunteered (or were conscripted), by the time they were qualified, most of them would have realised what might happen during their service, and continued serving in that clear knowledge. The few who did not like that thought, were sensible and left. And my great respect to them for doing so. So please forgive me for suggesting that you (you did write “we” - and “there was never any risk”) must have had a very sheltered “-RAF FJ” (your profile claim) existence. Knowing (by honest and/or genuine repute, if not personally) several of the chaps you are word-jousting with, as a matter of honour, I really could not let this history-jousting go without some kind of challenge. So could I please politely inquire as to what time scale or “-RAF FJ” position you had in mind for your “fact” that “we” (whoever you are) “never had to do it for real, and there was never any risk of having to do it for real.” Yours respectfully, .......... LFH nb crossed with wiggy and LB - same sentiments. ... |
May I remind some of the people on this thread that the RAF isn't just fast-jets? Some people (rotary come to mind) have been "doing it for real" for many years.
Incidentally, I believe that since 1.4.1918 there has never been a day when the RAF were not on active service somewhere in the world. A record to be proud of, whatever role. |
Originally Posted by Herod
(Post 10552797)
May I remind some of the people on this thread that the RAF isn't just fast-jets?
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I loved the programme, it was awesome.
I love the F-35, it's a stunning jet. My only complaint is they have not shown anything relating to Typhoon training - there are two frontline jets in the RAF, showing only one is biased. As for calling an instructor "mate," consider that the holds are so long, there's simply no such thing as a Fg Off turning up to Valley, anymore. They're all Flt Lts/Lts and the majority of the pilots instructing at Valley, are themselves, Flt Lts/Lts, so from a seniority point of view, they're on the same level... |
BVRAAM - it could get really silly at nav school when I was going through. Not only did we have to address all instructing staff as "sir", this applied irrespective of rank. So you would get the crazy situation of a flying officer student nav calling his flying officer staff pilot "sir" while the sergeant FE who flew on the Varsity addressed his pilot as Fred (or whatever). We also had a flight lieutenant stude on my course who was expected to address the flying officer educator who took us for maths revision as "sir". On reflection it might have been better if we had all called each other "mate"!
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Wiggy, Herod - quite right, I like many others was 'doing it for real' in Northern Ireland for many years while the RAFG warriors were enjoying their duty free petrol and cars:E
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Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav
(Post 10552879)
BVRAAM - it could get really silly at nav school when I was going through. Not only did we have to address all instructing staff as "sir", this applied irrespective of rank. So you would get the crazy situation of a flying officer student nav calling his flying officer staff pilot "sir" while the sergeant FE who flew on the Varsity addressed his pilot as Fred (or whatever). We also had a flight lieutenant stude on my course who was expected to address the flying officer educator who took us for maths revision as "sir". On reflection it might have been better if we had all called each other "mate"!
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Did someone say : “Double deductions”? Just had a nasty flashback.Urghh! Nav School in the early 70s was effectively training Lancaster navigators for an RAF equipping with F4s, Buccaneers and Nimrods. I hated it. The whole thrust of this thread is that training styles have to evolve. 6 FTS was a bit late with that. |
But Timelord, never miss an opportunity to teach. (edited due to incorrect quote.) |
When I went back as an instructor in the 90s -If I addressed a student as “mate” - it was probably because I had forgotten his (or her by then ) name! |
At basic flying trainng school I had a Flt. Sgt. pilot QFI (and he was brilliant), I was commissioned. At his suggestion first meeting of the day he would say "Good morning, Sir & I would reply good morning, Flight Sargent". The remainder of the day, on ground or in the air I called him "Sir" and he called me many things, including "mate", when I did fairly well !!
As long as the respect for knowledge and ability is recognised (both ways) I see little harm in two similar ranked people calling each other by any acceptable title (it is 2019). I guess that if a senior officer was involved (check ride, maybe) normal Service rules would apply. The students are there for one purpose, to learn the basics of air combat, and I know from several sources that it is working. I would love to give it a go again but the main objection would be the time factor, I would probably be about ninety on completion !!!! Bill |
Back in the days when the RAF could afford a Refresher Training School, an Air Commodore (a bit of a tetchy old sod, it must be said) returned from a dual trip one Monday morning...
His QFI, in deference to rank, asked him if he would like a drink. Normal courtesy is that the student makes the brew, but the QFI had decided that diplomacy was necessary with this old sod. As he was brewing up The Man's tea, the QFI checked that the milk had been delivered, but it hadn't...and that which was in the fridge had definitely gone off. "Would you like coffee mate?", asked the QFI. "Young man, informality is one thing, but do NOT refer to me as your 'mate'", came the reply. "Sorry, sir. The milk is off, sir, so would you like Coffeemate in your tea, sir, or would you prefer coffee, sir, perhaps with some Coffeemate, sir?" "Tea will be fine" Miserable old git. |
Times change, but what goes around comes around. I recall an OASC briefing in the early 1970s when we were informed that the RAF was not attracting sufficient candidates who achieved a Board Grade 5. A suggestion from a non OASC attendee that maybe it would be worth examining the assessment criteria to ensure that they reflected societal change received short shrift. But of course we did change, and have gone on doing so. I recently read an interesting article in The New Statesman which it is well worth taking a few minutes to consider. I am not for one moment suggesting that the students who feature in the programme exhibit the characteristics described in the article, but it is the background from which they are drawn and they will be different from those of us who grew up in the period immediately following the Second World War. In fact I should be rather concerned if they were not different.
YS |
BV
Don't you come around here with no agenda, being reasonable and even-handed
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Nav School in the early 70s was effectively training Lancaster navigators for an RAF equipping with F4s, Buccaneers and Nimrods. I hated it. |
BEagle
"Sorry, sir. The milk is off, sir, so would you like Coffeemate in your tea, sir, or would you prefer coffee, sir, perhaps with some Coffeemate, sir?" "Tea will be fine" Whatever happened to Nestea? WT |
It rivalled Camp Coffee as a brew to avoid.
By the way, I still wonder when the RAF piping times of peace began and ended. It would be nice to know, just for the record. |
Hot Nestea sounds unbelievably vile. Wasn't some 'instant tea' mix included in Emergency Ration tins at one time?
Latterly, Nestea seems to have been a form of that unpleasant emetic known as 'Iced Tea', so beloved by those across the Pond, presumably as an alternative to other alcohol-free or virtually alcohol-free drinks, such as Budweiser? For all its sins, apart from Earl Grey, NAAFI did at least sell the best tea bags there were at one point (those which came in an orange-coloured box). Do they still exist, or have they too fallen foul of contractorization? |
Timelord,
Loved every minute of my 32 weeks at 2 ANS Gaydon in '66 - great Course Cdr for 88 ( Ted Mears sadly long gone ), great Flt Cdr GD Stu Ward later Sqn Ldr Ops at Gan then Akrotiri and lot of others I could name. Sadly I didn't like 1 ANS Stradishall, partly because on AL between the 2 units I started going out with a girl back in Camberley I had fancied for a couple of years - the lovely Anne, now my wife of 52 years - and also we had some right arseholes on our instructional syndicate ( mainly ex-bomber men ), 2 of whom we named Noddy and Big Ears. The latter died last year. I found it nauseating that a 40+ Flt Lt ( Noddy ) grovelled and shook in front of a 32 yr old Sqn Ldr! Thankfully a new proper instructor arrived, the great Brian Weatherly ex-Hastings and Brits. It was he who told me that there was a possibility that someone from our course would be posted to the, as yet ,not in service Herc' and that would be me. As it turned out I was to be the first of an avalanche of 1st tourists posted onto the Herc' from '67 onwards. So, as far as we, and those posted onto the Andover, Argosy, Twin Pioneer etc , were concerned Nav' School was doing a good job in preparing us for our roles. The not so good students were posted to be back seaters on pointy things! |
Tea bags!?
On a par with gas fired BBQ, surely? Yorkshire Leaf Tea, and not the "hard water" muck is surely the benchmark. |
Brian,
Are you saying those old 'wind dependant' empire-hopping transport types needed the services of a actual navigator more than the two-hour combat-radius of the fast zippy things? Flug |
Brian 48nav
started going out with a girl back in Camberley I had fancied for a couple of years - the lovely Anne, now my wife of 52 years Miss J. Hunter Dunn, Miss J. Hunter Dunn, Furnish'd and burnish'd by Aldershot sun, What strenuous singles we played after tea, We in the tournament - you against me! Love-thirty, love-forty, oh! weakness of joy, The speed of a swallow, the grace of a boy, With carefullest carelessness, gaily you won, I am weak from your loveliness, Joan Hunter Dunn. Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, How mad I am, sad I am, glad that you won, The warm-handled racket is back in its press, But my shock-headed victor, she loves me no less. Her father's euonymus shines as we walk, And swing past the summer-house, buried in talk, And cool the verandah that welcomes us in To the six-o'clock news and a lime-juice and gin. The scent of the conifers, sound of the bath, The view from my bedroom of moss-dappled path, As I struggle with double-end evening tie, For we dance at the Golf Club, my victor and I. On the floor of her bedroom lie blazer and shorts, And the cream-coloured walls are be-trophied with sports, And westering, questioning settles the sun, On your low-leaded window, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn. The Hillman is waiting, the light's in the hall, The pictures of Egypt are bright on the wall, My sweet, I am standing beside the oak stair And there on the landing's the light on your hair. By roads "not adopted", by woodlanded ways, She drove to the club in the late summer haze, Into nine-o'clock Camberley, heavy with bells And mushroomy, pine-woody, evergreen smells. Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, Miss Joan Hunter Dunn, I can hear from the car park the dance has begun, Oh! Surrey twilight! importunate band! Oh! strongly adorable tennis-girl's hand! Around us are Rovers and Austins afar, Above us the intimate roof of the car, And here on my right is the girl of my choice, With the tilt of her nose and the chime of her voice. And the scent of her wrap, and the words never said, And the ominous, ominous dancing ahead. We sat in the car park till twenty to one And now I'm engaged to Miss Joan Hunter Dunn. WT |
Thanks WT - one of my favourite poems by one of my favourite poets. Betjeman getting in references to his beloved suburban architecture. Cant abide the drivel churned out by the present poet laureate, not helped by her flat, monotonous delivery.
Well done Brian - only two years behind you in the marriage stakes. |
Flugplatz
I omitted to put one of those smiley things with my post - the lovely Anne, my technical adviser, wasn't around to advise me! I have a golden rule with social media - I try never to make a comment that I wouldn't be prepared to say to someone's face in the pub. However when I was at Changi in the late 60s, 20 SQN and 74 over at Tengah flew pointy things and had no need at all of the Vasco de Gama types like me ( Hunters and Lightnings for those not in the know ) and I would imagine the navs on 45 & 81 ( Canberras ) took a fair bit of joshing in Tengah OM bar. Over the years I think postings from Nav' School reflected 2 things; need i.e vacancies and secondly whichever fleet was 'flavour of the month' at the time. At certain times the top studes were going to V Force, other times to the Shackleton, late 60s the Herc' and from about 72' the VC10. I left at the end of '73 ( because I was always going to put my lovely Camberley Girl ahead of the RAF ) and can't comment on post then. Warm Toast Thank you for that poem - my Camberley Girl has just printed it off. Thanks for the congrats' too! TTN Many thanks too! SORRY for the thread drifting away folks - back to my bath chair and hot chocolate. |
TTN somewhat biased in his acknowledgement of Betjeman, since the Bells which summoned the poet in school days summoned also TTN in employment post-Royal Air Force. The same Bells summoned me, prior to the smell of polish in a South Cerney hut, at a salary of £620 p.a. and a very comfortable Common Room existence.
In the 1980's, a particularly good nav. student, of the original Fighter Pilot era, could manage an instructional sortie in all aspects as well as moi, and had the capability, as a former nurse, to care for me on some blasted heath should my errors result in us leaving the jet. This student did not address me as 'Sir.' |
Some great thread drift here! But back to the original ....
I finally found the time to watch the first episode and so watched it in the context of having read this thread first. My overriding thought regarding how QFIs and students referred to each other was whether or not due respect was shown in both directions and I felt that it was, as it was some 40+ years ago when I was at Valley. Back then it would have been disrespectful not to call your QFI 'sir' as that was the protocol of the time. Now, if the protocol is to call everyone 'mate' then so be it and, perhaps, to call ones Flt Lt QFI 'sir' may actually be disrespectful. I am still in contact with some of my QFIs from training days and we are long term friends. I am also in contact with some of the students from my first instructional tour almost 30 years ago and, again, we are friends. When we started IOT at Cranwell (we were all Pilot Officers) the College Warrant Officer, in his first address to the course, said "Gentlemen, while you are here I will call you sir and you will call me sir. The difference is that you will mean it". It was said with the sardonic sense of humour that few other than RAF Regiment SNCOs have, and we all had the greatest respect for him for the rest of the course. |
Jenkins gosh how did you remember that? I have to say my brief spell at Marlborough was very happy, in marked contrast to Betjeman, who was pretty miserable there. Called in at the Polly tearoom recently and had a cup of tea, but resisted the enormous slices of cake on offer!
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Originally Posted by sycamore
(Post 10551159)
Is there any particular reason why the F35 comes to a hover at ~100 ft then lets down ...?If it`s so clever why not just drive on down to 15-20 ft..easier references,less power used.....?
Whether Carrier or terrain - allows pilot to ascertain suitability of landing zone for touchdown. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....881d30d138.jpg |
Herod
[QUOTE=Incidentally, I believe that since 1.4.1918 there has never been a day when the RAF were not on active service somewhere in the world. A record to be proud of, whatever role.[/QUOTE]
Not sure about pre WW2 but in the post war years I think 1968 was the only year we were not on active service somewhere. Aaron. |
Aaron,
I recall reading that 1968 was the only year since WW2 that not a single British serviceman lost their life on ops. The Herc' crews were involved in taking soldiers from Singapore to help deal with an insurrection in Mauritius that year and also IIRC flying Met plods to deal with strife in Anguilla. Also Andovers and Hercs' of FEAF flew lots of sorties into Saigon with Red Cross supplies - not sure if that counts as active service. On one occasion a crew returned to their U/S Herc' in the morning to find a few bullet holes in the tailplane - apparently there had been a firefight when some VC tried to get on the airport during the night. Glad I was safely asleep in Singapore! LOMCEVAK That's spooky you coming on board just then! My lovely wife ( have I mentioned her already? ) gave birth in Changi 50 years ago last April to a future colleague of yours at ETPS - Shaun. B48N |
Originally Posted by Auxtank
(Post 10554414)
I suspect it is clever enough to do that however, because old habits (procedures) die hard perhaps...
Whether Carrier or terrain - allows pilot to ascertain suitability of landing zone for touchdown. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....881d30d138.jpg |
Originally Posted by Brian 48nav
(Post 10554455)
LOMCEVAK
That's spooky you coming on board just then! My lovely wife ( have I mentioned her already? ) gave birth in Changi 50 years ago last April to a future colleague of yours at ETPS - Shaun. B48N |
I went through the system in the mid-80s. At the start, all QFIs were Sir, 24/7.
As we got more experienced, the younger ones were more relaxed and we were on first name terms with them, firstly in the Mess, then at work outside of the brief-debrief period. As I progressed through the training system, the relaxation increased until by the time I reached the Tornado OCU, it was a very relaxed atmosphere because by then, there was no need for Sir in the cockpit. I don't see how that is any different to what was on the programme. In early training today, it's always Sir from brief to debrief, "You have control" "I have control, Sir" but outside that, there are no issues at all with first name terms, m8 or anything else. It works well. What worked back in the 50s or 60s or later was relevant to then. It's not relevant to now. The students today are better than we were, the training is far more intense with far less time to master any given skill. And it works. Sorry if that upsets some. |
There is a halfway house between Sir and Mate - they could always just use their first names - seems to have worked for me for 30 plus years instructing.
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Brian,
I wasn't taking umbrage :) just genuinely wondering about the 'art' of navigating in the 50s/60s without quite so much of the bells and whistles. About 10 years ago I took a job east of Asia flying un-pressurised aircraft in remote locations and suddenly found I needed to remember (and use) nav. stuff that I never thought I would need! (Monsoon etc.) so I have the greatest respect for anyone doing long trips with few land or sea marks and using a variety of methods to get where they need to be. Flug |
Langleybaston,
Oh, for fastjet aircrew or our equivalent, 1946 to 1981 and 1983 to 1990. |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10552791)
Apologies for being late on parade and late aboard the minor outrage bus but even though my generation (in my case front line in the eighties) didn't fight a war "for real" as I recall it in the fast jet world at that time we were losing roughly an airframe a month, probably more, and perhaps a dozen aircrew a year, much of that down to the standard of the "kit" we had to work with, the tasks we were set and the nature of the operation, so please don't play down what we/you did.
That is in no way meant to trivialise what current men and women in the front line now do - and TBH as an ex driver, F-4, Air Defence, with a vague understanding of a B-Scope , I'd give my right thingy 'ollcky thing to have a go in the F-35. wiggy, Fair point. I was really not trying to play down what my generation did, but rather express my complete and total admiration for the current crop of FJ aircrew, and indeed ANY RAF aircrew from 1991 onwards to the present day. |
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