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Originally Posted by Easy Street
(Post 10745003)
"Could not happen" is always going to be too ambitious a statement where people are involved. People are forever finding new and often convoluted ways to screw up despite the very best efforts of other people to design systems that stop them screwing up. So yes, it could happen in the modern RAF. Is it likely? I don't know. I'd say the Tutor midair (arthritic pilot allowed to fly aerobatic aircraft despite being unable to look out properly), Cunningham ejection (ill-advised seat maintenance regime, inappropriate time pressures leading to incorrect harness routing and moving seat pins at high speed during landing roll), Voyager negative-g incident (unsecured loose article), Catterick Puma crash (gross indiscipline), GR4 Moray Firth midair (not the direct cause, but still of concern: staff WSO afraid of medium level flight), Reds engineer killed at Valley (inadequate crew training or inappropriate designation of supernumerary crew, take your pick) - and those are just off the top of my head - all indicate that RAF people have shown themselves more than capable of making disastrous mistakes and misjudgements in recent memory.
[Coincidental or not, rather a lot of those killed or injured in that list were people to whom the RAF owed a special duty of care: air cadets, students and passengers.] |
Originally Posted by langleybaston
(Post 10745127)
Of course you are correct, but the sheer list of incompetences in the case in question suggests drink. drugs or deranged to me: ........ negligence, disobedience, idiocy, farce.
Your list pinpoints single primary causes. By the way, would you like to fly in a fighter jet? Too bl**dy right I would!!" |
Originally Posted by Cat Techie
(Post 10746001)
Peer pressure. I have seen the RAF throw unsuspecting people into fast jets on visits. That is a fact.
By the way, would you like to fly in a fighter jet? Too bl**dy right I would!!" |
Originally Posted by weemonkey
(Post 10746010)
A man has to know his limits.
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Originally Posted by Cat Techie
(Post 10746020)
Pray tell me how does a novice know what his limits are? The person in question had thrown an oval ball to a bloke whom dropped kicked it between two posts and an upright in Sydney the autumn before. He was on a PR visit. He didn't know he was going to fly that day, because he didn't when we spoke to him the early morning he pitched up. (yes he had the med and seat/equipment training before as we all would as a cat B). Almost as daft a point as that civvy OAP met man makes.
Ergo he knew his limits, but was shanghaied into it and left with 0 support. And YES I have done "trips" and I wouldn't now. :suspect: It's a young mans game. |
Originally Posted by Cat Techie
(Post 10746020)
Pray tell me how does a novice know what his limits are? The person in question had thrown an oval ball to a bloke whom dropped kicked it between two posts and an upright in Sydney the autumn before. He was on a PR visit. He didn't know he was going to fly that day, because he didn't when we spoke to him the early morning he pitched up. (yes he had the med and seat/equipment training before as we all would as a cat B). Almost as daft a point as that civvy OAP met man makes.
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
(Post 10746068)
I did, however, do the course on good manners. The one you missed.
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Originally Posted by weemonkey
(Post 10745743)
He didn't want to be there in the first place.
A little like when Delboy Trotter went hang gliding. |
I wrote it at the time but it bears repeating: it is unbelievably lucky that no one was seriously hurt (or worse) in this incident and that the plane could return to base. Sometimes the holes just don't want to line up in the proverbial cheese.
That being said this whole fiasco shows an unbelievably casual and unprofessional operation. Beyond belief. |
Originally Posted by Cat Techie
(Post 10746143)
Self opinionated as usual. Victor.
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There was a USAF F-4 ejection over the Gulf of Mexico in the mid-1970's where the student in the front seat initiated the ejection sequence. The canopy jettisoned and the back seat had some sort of malfunction and did not fire. The front seat went out leaving the instructor sitting in back with a loud but flyable NORDO aircraft which he successfully took into Navy Corpus Christi after making a pass to clear the training pattern of TS-2A's.
He dropped the hook and took the arresting gear and then gingerly climbed out of the plane with minor flash burns from the front seat activation. The plane was left on the runway for a couple of days until Air Force 'Egress Systems Specialists' could arrive and safe the half-cocked seat. Here's an earlier F-4 with battle damage that sent the WSO out. The pilot decided to stay onboard and land the aircraft. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d036c9d022.png https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/57805 |
Originally Posted by Easy Street
(Post 10745003)
"Could not happen" is always going to be too ambitious a statement where people are involved. People are forever finding new and often convoluted ways to screw up despite the very best efforts of other people to design systems that stop them screwing up. So yes, it could happen in the modern RAF. Is it likely? I don't know. I'd say the Tutor midair (arthritic pilot allowed to fly aerobatic aircraft despite being unable to look out properly), Cunningham ejection (ill-advised seat maintenance regime, inappropriate time pressures leading to incorrect harness routing and moving seat pins at high speed during landing roll), Voyager negative-g incident (unsecured loose article), Catterick Puma crash (gross indiscipline), GR4 Moray Firth midair (not the direct cause, but still of concern: staff WSO afraid of medium level flight), Reds engineer killed at Valley (inadequate crew training or inappropriate designation of supernumerary crew, take your pick) - and those are just off the top of my head - all indicate that RAF people have shown themselves more than capable of making disastrous mistakes and misjudgements in recent memory.
[Coincidental or not, rather a lot of those killed or injured in that list were people to whom the RAF owed a special duty of care: air cadets, students and passengers.] negligence, disobedience, idiocy, farce. negligence, disobedience, idiocy, farce. |
Surely the biggest worry here is not the comedy of errors that led up to the ejection, but that the Front Seat DID NOT function correctly. It must have been extremely uncomfortable for the occupant not knowing if it would fire and when. Also hats off to the techies who had to disarm it.
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I don't know of any mil pilot who has EVER flown a pax ride in an aircraft equipped with a bang seat that hasn't thoroughly checked that the pax is properly strapped in (harness, helmet, oxy, etc) before hopping in themselves.
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Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight
(Post 10748593)
I don't know of any mil pilot who has EVER flown a pax ride in an aircraft equipped with a bang seat that hasn't thoroughly checked that the pax is properly strapped in (harness, helmet, oxy, etc) before hopping in themselves.
I know the Australian Defence Force has people poring over accident reports from other countries to learn lessons. Perhaps the UK and France should have a word? |
Originally Posted by langleybaston
(Post 10746068)
I did, however, do the course on good manners. The one you missed.
Jack |
Originally Posted by Cat Techie
(Post 10746001)
Peer pressure. I have seen the RAF throw unsuspecting people into fast jets on visits. That is a fact.
By the way, would you like to fly in a fighter jet? Too bl**dy right I would!!" |
With regard to command eject and the Royal Air Force... :ouch:
The Navigator ejected himself and his Pilot from their serviceable aircraft. |
Similar litanies of errors happen in UK more often than you think - but it takes an ‘Accident Report’ to highlight it to most blinkered operators, military and civil, who have assured themselves of their comfort.
Having been in a similar comfortable position twice, I have been investigated after one accident (5 years from end to end) and conducted an accident investigation for another. All the errors and mistakes you’ve just read about are somewhere within your sight. They just haven’t been ‘highlighted’ to you, yet. |
Interesting that the Rafale involved in this incident was most probably their newest one, and must have had very low hours. Number 358, the highest 2 seater in service. Maybe the defence contractors were part of a ceremony for the final delivery, as all subsequent Rafale deliveries have been for export?.
Rather embarrassing to very nearly lose a brand-new jet. |
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