In December, The Fire Brigades Union won a landmark ruling in its dispute with the government over changes made to firefighters’ pensions in 2015. It signaled that younger firefighters on the new scheme would have to be put back on the previous pension scheme, and was fought on the basis of age discrimination. You may remember that some of you had grandfathering rights bestowed upon them, and were able to remain in their existing scheme due to proximity to normal retirement age. The government said it would appeal of course. But this announcement from Liz Truss is interesting. If it fails, it seems that remedial action may cost the Treasury £4bns pa.

Watch this space.. Pensions eh? Who said they were boring? Whenever I meet someone at a do and they ask what I now do, and I say ‘Pensions actually, a bit dull I’m afraid’, their likely faces usually light up. ‘No, no.. not dull at all!’

https://www.parliament.uk/business/p...1-30/HCWS1286/

My missus is in a group of police officers fighting the same decision, waiting to see what happens here. Another group fighting it are our Judges!! Who will rule on their case?

I only dread to think how lifetime allowance headroom/breaches will be calculated/recalculated, if benefits increase.

The sinister side of me is wondering how long it will be before we have another deviation in the Pensions; having saved a fortune going from RPI to CPI, I sense the next venture will be a mandated transfer from CPI to CPI(H)...

Oh no! Don't put me back on APFS05. I left a few years ago and have rejoined on APFS15. I love the new career average calculation from the comfort of level 35 PAS!

More info.

https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2...-pension-cost/

I think the judges’ case was considered alongside the firefighters case back in Dec because of the similarities of the 2.

Part of me is quite excited to see a penny-pinching short-termist Government skewered by their own legislation. However, some thoughts did spring to mind if they lose their appeal and have to put things right.

1. More pensions uncertainty would follow. My betting would be a new scheme introduced to keep the pensions bill down, with no grandfather rights and everybody even worse off than now to avoid inflating the pensions bill further (despite the fact that more folk leaving and fewer staying long enough to earn a pension means the bill going forward is already lower). Especially if the economy tanks post-BREXIT.

2. Any new scheme would potentially be contributory or have a lower level of annual accrual.

3. Played out across the public sector, if the economy does tank with job losses, wage freezes and generally more fiscal misery, the public wouldn’t take kindly to being told the government has to find an extra £4Bn to sort out a pensions Mess. Would this see a renewed campaign against public sector pensions? If the government is looking to rebuild its popularity ahead of an election, this would be one way. Misery for all!

4. If forced to review the AFPS 15 measures, what else would be cut to pay for it? Well, depending which bit of the budget pensions come out of, I can see more personnel cuts, making life even harder for those left.

In short, much like bags of smoke, this could be a double-edged sword. I’ll happily go back to 75, but the wary cynic in me says it won’t be that simple.

You wouldn’t. I was assuming that more still in service and compulsorily transitioned, will have done so from 05 by now, that’s all. The remedial work required is going to be mind boggling.

It relates to the public sector, not just AFPS.

It would really useful if a Pension Calculator was produced to show the differences between 75/15 and pure 75 (other combinations apply too, of course!) assuming we will get a choice of reverting, or not.....

It would be futile.

I don’t know if HMG will simply authorise restitution or go down the compensation route. The possibilities are mind boggling. I have no doubt that many will have been severely financially disadvantaged. The opportunity cost is a major major exercise in its own right. I suspect HMG and MoD will try to fudge it.

The granular detail you can go down to is as specific as the impact of leaving, getting divorced, experiencing a PSO or child maintenance payments, or an actuarial calculation and it being made redundant.

If you go back to 75 and your accrual is different (in terms of date and profile) that has an impact on AA and LTA (probably unkindly so), and what about those who left because the pension got rubbish all of a sudden?

It’s a disaster.

Just run the current calculator with your current expected dates. And for 75/05 only make sure you are aged 45 or older on 1 April 2012 !

The whole AA & LTA bit concerns me quite a lot. Having just been stung with a 13k tax bill because the MOD don’t make pension input payments in a regular linear fashion, the prospect of another lump sum being arbitrarily added to pension pots again, potentially pushing peoole over the limit - again - is frankly a major concern. And it’s not particularly fair given that as individuals we have absolutely no say in our pay, pensions hours worked etc.

I tried that and replacing 8 years worth of AFPS15 with AFPS05 increased my yearly EDP by just £300. I doubt that’s correct, but the second lump sum has motivated me nicely, especially as it can be cashed in early with an actuarial reduction.

I wonder how many left because the ‘second wind’ payment had changed. Out of interest, will reverting to 05/75 mean there is no offer of employment until 60?

Jambo,

.. just one reason why this is going to be a rat’s nest. Another aspect of ASPS15 though, in common with all other public sector pensions of the time, is that the Scheme Normal Retirement/Benefits age was hard wired into alignment with the State Pension Age via secondary legislation.

This meant that the age at which you took benefits could shuffle to the right in concert with State Pension. Ultimately, this is all going to be another nail in the coffin of a public sector Defined Benefit (whether that’s be Final Salary or Career Average) pension scheme.

The issue most pressing will be that of Annual/Lifetime Allowance implications. It is public knowledge that I am not the loudest drum beater for the Forces Pension Society any longer, but if you are a member I would certainly be keeping them close. Service Personnel need a professional body that looks after their retirement interests. One with properly authorised and regulated trustee and professional responsibilities.

Al,

so so in short, those on AFPS75 past IPP who were forced onto 15 (despite not being given the option to leave with preserved defined benefits at IPP), are now looking at getting their pension and gratuity uplifted back to 75 levels?

If those individuals were not previously going to cross lifetime and annual limits, will they be now liable as this could be seen as increasing the imaginary, made up, non-existent and Sir Humfrey led GAD derived AFPS personal pension pot by “x” in one year?

So so in short, will people be hit with annual limits if previously under the old scheme, with an unfettled AFP’s 75 they would not?

Lots of unanswered questions - many by people who are no longer in who have access to DINs and quite frankly, I don’t trust the F@ckers to manage this correctly or in my interest now I am out.

As to the quantum of what I lost on a personal level, that now appears owed, a lump sum of 20k gratuity and around 130 quid extra per month. Thieving barstewards.

The variables are endless. What I will be shortly doing is writing to the Secretary of State and going on record as an interested person. The problem is, as a non expert individual, you simply don’t know what you don’t know. If there are tax issues, if those tax issues are based on restitution or reinstatement, what happens? You only have to see how the government has been crippled and beset by problems relating to NHS doctors and consultants, and the WASPI women to see that.

Vin Rouge,

That was my question to FPS when I asked if it was better to pay the tax or wait out via Scheme pays given the potential future changes. The reply that came back was effectively we just don’t know, at this stage it’s too complicated with too many unknowns.

On a slight side-note, as there is no 'pension pot' that has my pension contributions sitting in it, how can individuals be taxed on a lifetime allowance on something that doesn't actually exist?

There are a number of Benefit Crystallisation Events (BCE) which apply at the time and point you trigger one of them. It’s at that point that your ’pot’ (notional or otherwise) is calculated and a tax charge considered against it.

”Specifically, it is recognised that it is not as simple as putting everyone back into their old pension scheme. This is because some SP will be better off in the old scheme, and some better off in the new scheme. MOD will ensure all eligible SP can keep their accrued benefits.”

I read this as if we put SP back on their original pension schemes then everyone can leave at 55 without PVR and we will reintroduce the manning crisis we solved by getting everyone to sign up to 60.

The FBU will now pursue compensation for injury to feelings and compensation for financial losses for claimants who lost money due to the changes.


My feelings were hurt.


https://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2019/12/...CQPHtqhGH-Viqg

Manpower strat plans better get on their knees to the treasury then and sort out a decent FRI to make it people’s worth to stick around then.