|
Crosswind landings
What is the current teaching/ practice of the RAF for crosswind landings, particularly on large jets, eg Voyager, Sentry, A400 etc? |
First, stow your camera?:E
CG |
Obviously, it will be appropriate to the type. You finish with etc, but I guess you mean large aircraft generally? FWIW, the TriStar was approved by Lockheed for drifted or wing-down, up to 30kts x component in most conditions. However, RAF SOP taught wing-down. :)
OAP |
VP,
Lockheed cleared either landing with drift applied or, wing down TD. "Kicking-off" drift is not a generally approved commercial transport technique. The wing down technique was approved with a limitation of 8 degrees of roll at TD, sufficient for a correctly applied aligned landing with 30kts across. However, the technique was not easy to master. Of course, A/L did it perfectly! And, so did some of us pilots! :ok: :D OAP |
TriStar 500 wing pod clearance is 2'11". Don't think an RAF TriStar pod was ever scraped, despite routinely working into windy places. :cool:
OAP |
Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 10291556)
OAP |
Ahh ... the link finally worked ... I had deleted the original post!
A good bootful of rudder at touchdown [and afterwards!]. |
Once a pilot is wrong. I did my Boeing conversion at Seattle and they approved my crab, push off drift technique, hold wings level or slightly into wind, as did my conversion with BOAC onto the VC 10. The Boeing training manual said that wing down or crab was recommended x wind technique. It’s what I taught as a CFS approved RAF. QFI.( and as a Boeing TC) and what we did on the V aircraft ( underwing tanks and refuelling pods) and Canberra. ( wingtip tanks) My x wind technique was taught to me as an RAF stude and for the rest of my career, I used the crab , push off drift in the flare to land aligned with the runway.. Landing with drift appplied was not considered good airmanship to say the least. I ask the question as I recently saw a video of B 757 ( on which I have a lot of command time) being landed in a 40 knot x wind with no attempt to remove the drift angle. it looked truly awful. I wondered what was being taught, is acceptable, these days. Informed comment from those up to date? |
Retired BA/BY is wrong! :ooh: Are you incapable of reasoned dialogue? Who mentioned Boeing, VC10 or your crab? :)
OAP |
Or Canberra's? :confused:
OAP |
Where are you BA/BY? Do you want to slag a fellow CFS Flying Instructor again? Or, do you want to talk about flying aircraft TWICE the MTOW of your resume? :mad:
OAP |
I thougt that the original question referred to current RAF teaching - not specific aircraft types. All my RAF career (Many types and QFI) was the "crab" technique. Seemed to work, still here after some 20k hours!
Bill |
Originally Posted by Bill Macgillivray
(Post 10291597)
I thougt that the original question referred to current RAF teaching - not specific aircraft types. All my RAF career (Many types and QFI) was the "crab" technique. Seemed to work, still here after some 20k hours!
Bill Would be glad to hear comments from other RAF big jet SOP's? :ok: OAP |
Wing-down will always work, ensuring you land with no lateral drift, but it does mean a podded engine may be too close to the ground. Conversly, if you elect to crab, then unless you get it exactly right you're either going to land with lateral drift (ie you kicked the drift off too soon) or you'll still be crabbed off (ie kicked the drift off too late). Of the various RAF ME types I've operated I've used both techniques, or even a blend of them (ie a bit of wing down but also some crabbing). The geometry of the tailwheel types requires them to be flown accurately aligned and with absolutely no lateral drift - so had to be flown wing-down, but also to a relatively low crosswind limit. The tricycle types will always yaw themselves straight after touchdown if you've not got it right, but it can feel very uncomfortable and can't do the gear much good. Dont think I've ever seen a modern airliner using the wing-down technique. |
Originally Posted by H Peacock
(Post 10291625)
The tricycle types will always yaw themselves straight after touchdown if you've not got it right, but it can feel very uncomfortable and can't do the gear much good.
OAP |
OAP. I agree about the aerodynamic forces (yaw) always being present at touchdown, but I'm referring to just the CofG v undercarriage geometry. |
Originally Posted by Onceapilot
(Post 10291528)
"Kicking-off" drift is not a generally approved commercial transport technique.
OAP |
Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard
(Post 10291652)
Interesting. It’s certainly approved on the B747s, B767s and A330s I’ve been flying for the last 20 years. Not only approved, but strongly preferred by my outfit. (Although ‘squeezing off’ might be a better description than ‘kicking off’.) OAP |
Originally Posted by H Peacock
(Post 10291651)
OAP. I agree about the aerodynamic forces (yaw) always being present at touchdown, but I'm referring to just the CofG v undercarriage geometry. OAP |
I once had to defend a TriShaw pilot who'd alarmed some REMF FJ Wg Cdr at MPA by 'large bank angles near the ground' on the final approach. Having spoken with ATC and obtained a tape, although the PAR was poorly flown, the final approach attitude was clearly due to the ex-Hercules pilot using the 'wing down' technique in the usual MPA crosswind, which was alien to this FJ Wg Cdr. In fact I'd been on board the TriShaw at the time and the landing seemed entirely routine from a passenger's point of view.
Anyone who 'kicks off' the drift or uses 'bootfulls' of rudder deserves a good kicking themselves! One merely aligns the aeroplane with the runway at the same rate which one uses to initiate the flare. Once down, into wind control column and forward pressure helps - although FBW aircraft may have some control laws of their own, I guess. But if an A380 can cope with 40-50 kt crosswinds using the |
Beagle, my understanding of 'kicking off the drift' simply refers to the action, not the finesse! If you don't kick off the drift ie use your feet on the rudder, how else do you do it?? |
'Kicking' implies a sudden sharp input. Entirely unnecessary - just use a squeeze of rudder to align the aeroplane with the RW as you flare. Exactly as in that A380 video.
Modern aircraft probably compensate for the rolling moment which develops if a large yawing rate is used in swept wing aeroplanes. |
Boeing 757/767 Flight Crew Trg Manual allows wing down (max25 kts xwd), crab followed by rwy alignment and crab only up to the ac xwd limitation which for the 757 is 40 kts. Not pretty, but legit. My RAF experience was ‘kicking off the drift’ for most ac and wing down for C130. The 75/76 doesn’t compensate for the roll due to yaw. |
'Kicking' implies a sudden sharp input. Entirely unnecessary - |
Only that part of the 'aviation world' which persists in using incorrect descriptions!
|
Always found offsetting the Cockpit from the centreline a tadge during the approach helped prevent the usual dick-dance trying to regain it during the rollout. BTW, some B737 variants had 5° of castor built into the mains which (unofficially) tolerated a small amount of crab angle during touchdown |
oh dear me. The entire aviation world understands the concept of 'kicking off the drift' except Beagle! Back on topic... Boeing testing the triple... |
Originally Posted by deltahotel
(Post 10291711)
Boeing 757/767 Flight Crew Trg Manual allows wing down (max25 kts xwd), crab followed by rwy alignment and crab only up to the ac xwd limitation which for the 757 is 40 kts. Not pretty, but legit. My RAF experience was ‘kicking off the drift’ for most ac and wing down for C130. The 75/76 doesn’t compensate for the roll due to yaw. OAP |
Thanks for the Vid DD! B747 and B777 doing fully drifted TD's, not aligning in the flare, maybe a hint of heading in the right direction on TD in one of those.:) Again, would be interested what the Makers certification for X-wind limit landings is? I guess, fully drifted to TD?
OAP |
OAP. A/L xwd limit 25 kts. The align mode is a sub mode initiated about 500’ which adds some wing down (max aob 2deg) if the crab exceeds 5deg, so a bit of both really. Very rare for lo vis to have much in the way of windiness so i’ve not seen a lot of this going on. As as for terminology ‘kicking....etc’ is a bit of shorthand and I sort of take the view that no one is going to be using this forum as a definitive teaching aid for technique. dh |
OAP has got the wrong end of the stick, I was NOT slagging anyone off, just trying to have a reasonable discussion. I related some of my experience to show I was not a 200 hr ppl and was trained by some of the very best quality organisations including the manufacturer of the aircraft I mentioned. ( although I have also operated the 767, quite a bit heavier than the 75). Decrab worked on that too! I WAS however disagreeing with his statement, paricularly after discussing the issue with close relative, a former Airbus and now 787 training captain. It it is interest that in “Handling the Big Jets” D P Davies describes removing the drift angle of a crabbed approach ( by pushing it off NOT “kicking “ his words) by co-ordinating the rudder input with aileron to keep the wings substantially level, particularly for podded engines. Can we not not keep the discussion polite and objective? |
Originally Posted by deltahotel
(Post 10291945)
OAP. A/L xwd limit 25 kts. The align mode is a sub mode initiated about 500’ which adds some wing down (max aob 2deg) if the crab exceeds 5deg, so a bit of both really. Very rare for lo vis to have much in the way of windiness so i’ve not seen a lot of this going on. dh OAP |
|
Don't understand the problem; just turn the runway into wind - or land across it! Second bit works in the Tiger as well. Mog |
Hello BA/BY,
So good of you to return to your topic. I agree that you should keep your discussion polite and objective. :) Now, instead of rudely referring to me (or anyone else) in the third person, as you still are, may suggest you are less rude and use the second person when addressing a forum member? Cheers OAP |
ORAC
B52, all the main gears can align with the runway. You probably know! ;) OAP |
The crosswind landing gear function is checked whilst taxying in the B-52. It felt weird to be moving diagonally across the RW at Barksdale whilst looking directly ahead when I experienced it!
|
The port outrigger apparently on the grass adds an extra dimension. I assume B-52s prefer 200ft wide runways.
|
Never needed any of that kicking off drift nonsense in the F4.....
|
Never needed any of that kicking off drift nonsense in the F4..... |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 08:49. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.