Jet spin training.
 

Can any Gnat and Hawk QFIs tell me what spin training was/is conducted at Valley on these two types.

I am particularly interested in the recovery technique, taught by CFS, from fully developed spins on these swept wing types, and if there was any supplementary procedure such as inspin aileron.

When I was a QFI at Manby we went to some Lightning units to refresh pilots on spin recovery techniques. (The JP with fuel in the tips had very similar spin characterstics, except for the ROD (!) to the Lightning and the JP standard recovery would , we were told by Boscombe, work on the Lightning, height permitting.

Is any spin refreshing done for Tornado pilots, or is a MB recovery. I assume FBW won't allow the Typhoon to spin!

The only spin recovery training I recall on the Tornado was watching the video of the GR1 trials and revising in my head the spin-recovery drill from the FRCs.


The ac was not cleared to spin in normal service.

I did the Hawk Course in 1984 and did spin recovery. I seem to remember that it was just the case of centralising the controls and closing the throttle. It came out of the spin a turn later. Was that due to the Toblarones on the wing leading edge???

FWIW I had the secondary duty of running "Spinexs" out of CFS in the late 80s ...at that time we certainly spun the Lightning folks at Binbrook and UK F4 crews ( front and back seat), don't recall any Tornado spinning.

The F4 recovery certainly didn't have much commonality with that used on the JP so we got the guys to recite their recovery actions whilst we did the handling.....that sometimes had it's interesting moments since we had approval to use "out spin" aileron to get an oscillatory spin going...I think it was a bit of an eye opener for those who had trained on the JP and expected something quite benign.

I used to enjoy going off and doing them, and hopefully our victims had a bit of fun as well....with a bit of coaching I had more than one F4 navigator fly pretty much the whole detail apart from the rotational bit!!!!

Spinning is currently taught to students and is a periodic currency for staff throughout the Hawk training system.

Brief but to the point!

BV

À propos nothing at all, I learned spinning in a Meteor VII in 1950. "A rough ride may be expected", said the P.N. - and they weren't kidding !

Danny.

On the Gnat, we were briefed a form of recovery rather than having any incipient spinning demo.

There were 2 yaw dolls' eyes, but no turn and slip (or turn co-ordinator :yuk: )

I think it went something like:

'Boot the black' (Rudder towards the black doll's eye)
'Punch the white' (Control column towards the white doll's eye)
'Set 6° nose-up' (Move control column to achieve 6° nose-up on the tailplane incidence gauge)
'Leave the throttle where it is'
'Wait...and hope!'
'When the music stops, recover from the dive'
'If it hasn't recovered by the briefed height, punch out immediately'

Forgiving little beast providing it wasn't provoked - centralising and waiting was often sufficient. As it was when I once saw more AoA than IAS in an F-4...:eek:

I only spun in the Hawk T1 once during my refresher course - it was a very 'canned' exercise with a choreographed entry procedure and was rather a waste of time. "Unload for control" was much simpler!

In the Gnat do I recall a white mark against which to put the 'stick' to get ailerons neutral? then having 'kicked the black' I seem to remember tail to 6 and wait. I had an incident of uncommanded rapid roll at low speed where the 'GIB' punching out effected a fairly rapid recovery. Not in the FRC's but it worked.

JF can elaborate but we were a bit cautious about the value of 'spinex' in the Harrier force, because having centralised and possibly shut down a surging motor the recovery action was stick back to un-mask the rudder. I don't recall a 'bona jet' i.e GR ever getting into a full spin by accident, indeed I think that it would only 'spin' if the donk was shut down.

That brought back a memory or two. :D

On the Tornado we were supposed to do counterintuitive stuff with the stick to keep us busy. After watching the altitude used on the spin trial videos I didn't anticipate doing much. It was often quipped that it was a 2-stage drill - put the SPILS switch into a less incriminating position for the accident photos before leaving.

That said, the Tornado spin was rather pedestrian compared to the Jaguar.

Having done a bit of spinning in my time and, remembering the different recovery drills of the types, it is interesting to hark back to the recent thread where the limited amount of aircraft handling in today's flying training was discussed. :ooh:

OAP

Tremblers around the 77 timeframe.


http://imageshack.com/a/img924/912/GVCVKU.jpg

In 1962 our Vampires were getting a bit twitter and bisted. Aircraft would have red line entries in the F700 like: 'Not to be spun solo' or 'No intentional spins.' Entry would vary even on the straight ones. Sometimes there would be a lazy roll and then pitch down; other times there would be two vicious flicks and you were in

Recovery was standard and it would recover between two to four or more turns depending on altitude.

On the walk round before flight one would shake one boom to ascertain whether the other boom shaked at the same rate.

I wonder if this accident had any bearing on that restriction?


On 23rd January 1961 the crew of two on this aircraft were undertaking a training flight over the Pennines when twenty minutes into the flight, and whilst flying 27,000 feet, the instructor entered a practice spin to the right. After four turns he attempted to pull out of the spin but was unable to do so, therefore further emergency action was taken without effect and the instructor warned the pupil that he would have to eject and the canopy jettisoned.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=153858

The pilots ejected without serious injury but a number of sheep were not so fortunate.

After spending some time reading the posts here yesterday I watched the entire BBC series released in 1986 about The Empire Test Pilots School. Written and Produced by Brian Johnson.

add Episode 3 has some interesting footage on spinning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9knSaT_4Tw

Fareastdriver (#16),

Another "must" on a Vampire walkaround: inspect tail pipe for NAAFI meat pie left there by an erk to warm up (on a recently landed aircraft}, but had been called away before he could retrieve it.

Also heard that later, leaked fuel accumulated in bottom of engine panelling had led to fires in the air. Remedy: some form of collector tray which discharged into a rubber tube which was supposed to register with hole in bottom. You had to stick a finger up the Vampire's bum to make sure it did so.

Or so I read. Anybody corroborate this rather indelicate procedure ?

Spin recovery was taught in the sim as part of the Tornado GR1/4 OCU, and is a mandatory trg requirement through the year in the sim too. Fairly hard to get into a spin, and recovery works well too.

Right up to the point where both engines flame out during your 20,000fpm descent towards terra firma. :eek:

Cannot remember exercise number for spinning in the Gnat so cannot check if we ever did the exercise, but sure I would remember with sheer stark terror if I had!

IIRC, Reg Stock, a production tp at Warton, was tasked to spin a Strikemaster with one tip tank full and the other empty. In his report, he wrote that the aircraft recovered satisfactorily, after some 17 turns.......:cool:

I could well be mistaken but... I seem to recall during a phase brief being shown the HUD video of a GR in an ACMI range. The story went that the pilot in question hadn't managed to claim any kills for the whole sortie so on the final 1 vs 1 vs 1 Mercedes split he got sight of one of the other jets and tried just a little too hard to pull the nose round and the jet departed. The HUD video cut out as the g mounted but what was recorded looked pretty violent.

During the last years of the dual seat Vampires in the RAAF 1968-69 spinning was verboten because we were told (no access to flight manual then just poorly roneoed, poorly typed, very difficult to read, greasy pages) fuel in the gas bags in wings would likely burst out. So feet on floor and fly to the beginning burble - no harsh control movements. We had no twitter then - we wuz just bisted. :}

Intentional Spinning in A4G Skyhawk forbidden but many pages in NATOPS explain about recovery techniques from such activities if required. 'Luckily' spin training was undertaken in the radial prop Winjeel and as I recall could be quite a violent experience - depending on entry conditions but relatively easy recovery.

Early on the Macchi MB326H was spinnable in all modes until the RAAF found that inverted spins were problematic - then banned. However they failed to inform the RAN FAA so we lost one (both pilots ejected safely) from an unrecoverable inverted spin demo with the front seat student on first fam flight. As I recall (having been converted to them at QFI Heaven East Sale) all the spins were nice and recovery easy enough.

Being one of the last Sea Venom DELMAR target towing pilots it was commonplace to do preflight accompanied by the AEO (Air Engineer Officer) explaining why it was OK to have this part cracked or bent or not lined up with other parts with the booms particularly out of alignment due to drag from DELMAR target when streamed. Geez they were crappy Venoms. :}

I recall a story about inadvertently spinning a Vulcan many years ago. Does anyone else have any recollection?

I was always told that you couldn't spin a delta. It just went into megamush.

Managed to depart a SHAR from a breaking-stop low speed scissors on one occasion; speed pegged below 30 (or was the min indicated 40?), flat, wings level, yaw vane 90 degrees, 360 degrees/sec rotation, 10k+ ft/min RoD, starting at 5000ft above the oggin.

Slapped the nozzles aft and saw the nadir star in the middle of the HUD at 3000'. (SHAR takes 5000' to recover from the vertical!!) Remembered Bartoonski's advice when I started displaying the jet and selected the hover stop, applied full power and nursed the nose up at 8 units AoA. Recovered at 1500' and knocked it off!! Thanks Paul!

Caught it all on film, as I was about to take a shot! Swing the lamp.

Attached are three pages about spin recovery for the A-4E/F/G Skyhawk from NATOPS. GIF graphic from same source. Not allowed to intentionally spin.

I seem to remember that the data for dirty or asymmetric configurations was non-existent. Given some of the weird external stores configurations we had I am sure that any actual spin would be unique!

There was a Vulcan that entered a spin on a low speed approach demo into Boscombe Down in the early 1960's. They managed to recover once but it entered a spin in the opposite direction. From memory they deployed the tail brake chute but it broke away. Both pilots (one a Hawker Siddeley test pilot and the other RAF) ejected and survived. The rear crew did not. The aircraft crashed near Andover.

ACW

I got the impression that the Hawk 'spin' was just really a stall with rudder induced yaw. Centralising the rudder (easy due to the forces) just ended up with a stall. A very benign aircraft.

Gnat Spinning
 

Early in the Gnat's life it was cleared for spinning, in fact it was cleared for solo spinning by more experienced students. All went well until certain QFI allowed his student to mishandle the aircraft to such an extent that they departed. QFI bravely took control and carried out the JP spin recovery actions. Result: scratch one Gnat and no more Gnat spinning.

A recent offering on spin testing. This on the Super Hornet. Interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLxK3maZqiA

The JP spin recovery visits to Lightning Sqns were indeed useful. I spun the Lightning twice and immediately put the JP spin technique to use. Out in 2 turns with only about 4000 ft height loss. Not so sure if the procedure would work so well for F4, Tornado etc as the recovery techniques were very different.

Thank you for replies, chaps. Most interesting reading.

Particularly pleased that our JP spin training saved at least one Lightning.

Not sure the F4 was recoverable, we understood at the time it went flat and was unrecoverable, although drag chute could possibly help.

Tales of the Vampire brought back a few memories. On my first spin in the T11 I was told to look at the booms flexing in the RV mirror. Never did again !

Thank you all, again.

As I recall it the USAF did spinning trials with the F4 (post losses due departures in Vietnam) which were made into a film that became required watching ( it may well be on YouTube somewhere). All bar one of the sorties ended in successful recoveries ...as I recall it the one loss was due to late deployment of the chute....the spin had time to go flat and then was indeed unrecoverable.

As I recall it initial actions (F4 K and Ms) were "unload, mil, bag, RAT" ...if that didn't solve it it was stick full forward and full in spin stick.....

In more mundane circumstances Going around again from the runway (especially into the radar pattern) having dumped the chute almost always resulted in some wag on the "other" squadron seeing the second landing and circulating a rumour that somebody had obviously almost spun in.......

3 page PDF of RAN FAA / RAAF Macchi MB326H SPIN info from 1973 RAAF Flight Manual (not seen in RAN FAA VC-724 Squadron then - perhaps later)

Dual Trainer VAMPIRES Mk35 & 35A from AAP 953 (PDF of spin recovery actions below)
Section 3, Chapter 1, Limitations - Prohibited Manoeuvres (A/L 1-March, 1962)

In the early 70s at CFS Rissy we used to provide spin famil training to the CFS Gnat squadron (4 Sqn?), Valley QFIs and at times to FJ squadrons (Lightings I recall). Reading the earlier posts it seems spin famil training to FJ squadrons has always been a bit ad hoc. Training we provided was never programmed well ahead - just was ad hoc when we were around. I remember there wasn't much point in teaching the JP recovery as a technique for the aircraft the victim was flying since that varied depending on the type. The main value was in experiencing uncontrolled flight. The 'canned' JP spin entry and recovery was flown but the main value I found was spinning from the vertical which was part of the normal QFI instructional sequence such as a mis-handled stall turn. For these exercise I would use an entry just past the vertical to ensure the aircraft would flop over the top then apply full pro-spin controls at about 100 knots. The result was always a mix of aerodynamic & inertial gyrations as the aircraft lost upward momentum and headed downhill. Without exception it gained a s**t or f**k verbal reaction. Some swore it must be an inverted spin but with the IAS still below 100 knots it was just ballistic tumbling until it entered an upright spin as the speed increased with full pro-spin controls still held firmly in place. The training benefit for the FJ pilot was experiencing the uncontrolled flight and subsequent spin rather than the JP recovery.

The F4 was reasonably predictable when it departed (and I did it too often!) - if you were quick enough to unload it, the recovery was rapid, especially in roll. The spin recovery used no rudder but full in-spin aileron, and there was the drag bag too. Flat spin was not recoverable.

ISTR in the those days of STC just culture (you screw up, you're screwed) a high AOA briefing that ended with: "And if you are still spinning at 10,000 ft, eject and take your posting like a man..."

I also enjoyed teaching JP spinning to the Iraqis. OK, enjoyed is probably the wrong word. By the time they had got the 2 second pause out of the way with the laboured verbalising of 'one thousand, er, er, two thousand', the full opposite rudder had quite often turned into full pro-spin control as the direction had reversed. This was usually followed by some noises of confusion followed by QFI resuming control. Happy days.

In 1961 we were taught high altitude loops in the Vampire entering at 20,000 ft. It was slow; there was a lot of inertia involved and quite delicate over the top. I think the main object was to avoid MCrit going down.

I fort the main object (T11) was to see how high you topped out after you mishandled going up and it flicked - I fink above 42000 was routine.

Never had rear view mirrors in the Sea Vampire or Sea Venom.

We were still spinning the Sea Venom in late 1969. I always believed the reason the spinning clearance had not been withdrawn was because the Admiralty didn't realise we had any left in service. :E

LFH


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