Two Typhoons chasing a Puma
 

I noticed a NOTAM this morning advising of fast jet intercepts in the locality of my strip and thought nothing more about it until later in the day I heard what was obviously a pair of Typhoons chasing each other around the sky which is very normal for this area.

Then I heard the sound of an eggbeater in among the cacophony of sound and on going outside watched the two Typhoons chasing the Puma which was maneuvering quite vigorously at low level.

I'd previously observed a similar scenario being played out in 2012 between two Typhoons and a Merlin, in the run up to the London Olympics and can only surmise this was another exercise to see if the Typhoon is a match against a low level, slow speed target.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the object of this exercise which appeared to follow the same pattern as the one in 2012 and with a similar outcome i.e Typhoons 0 Puma 1.

I reckon you have answered your own question in line three....

If that is the case then I'm surprised that there is a need to re-run an exercise that previously proved that the Typhoon was inadequate in this role.

Actually they were re-running the exercise with Typhoons as the Hurris and Spits are temporarily grounded,as that might be a fairer fight....

Maybe it's the Puma crew under training and they've started with the Typhoons to give them some confidence.

Pretty normal heli vs FJ training for the benefit of both sides.

Have done Puma vs Lightning and Sea King vs Tornado in the past. ZD notch anyone?

Once the helo makes itself obvious to the FJ then it is a question of the FJ trying to get a guns or missile solution on the helo and the helo trying to avoid both.

1 vs 1 it is usually the helo that succeeds in frustrating the FJ but with 2 FJ on one helo the odds very much go the other way.

Bear in mind this is an unarmed helo - save for perhaps a GPMG or M3M, it would be a very different exercise against an Apache.

When flying a Puma on fighter affiliation one has to be careful not to drag the fighter into the ground.

Set the floor, a kill is a kill....

Crab.

Exactly which A-A weapons would the Apache use to shoot the Typhoon? As awesome as the Apache is I don't think it's weapons would be of much use in that situation. I'd be more worried about a door or tail gunner with a GPMG!

BV

I think fast jet Vs low slow targets (especially Helicopters) is ultimately a game of cat and mouse against the clock- hide and seek.

The clock is ticking as a Fast Jet will be burning a LOT of fuel high energy manoeuvring down low trying to get weapons away, that doesn't include the fuel used looking for them in the first place or after they lose sight of them whilst fighting!

Mr Vice.

I'd have thought the 30mm gun with helmet mounted sight might substitute adequately for a door gunner...

I would imagine the manually aimed main gun could he quite annoying even if lock and lead isn't a supported function.

Apache has also been armed with air launched stingers on the tip position of the stub wings - two per side.

I also remember seeing a picture of an Israeli Apache with their short range air to air missile (python?)

I am aware of the nature of the Apache gun but how is a mostly forward firing weapon going to be of use? Even with one guy flying and one guy aiming (if that is how it would be employed) it would need to either fly backwards or hover. Neither would be a great tactic against a marauding FJ.

If it has genuinely been fitted with A-A weapons that is news to me and I stand to be corrected. However I'm still not convinced.

BV

A little research shows me Apache has been fitted with Stingers in trials. Designed to shoot down helicopters.

Still not convinced.

BV

BV may care to read this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH

OTOH I also found this:

Helicopters are like fish in a barrel. And that's not always a good thing, as shown in the 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, where a pair of F-15Cs dropped two US Army UH-60 Black Hawks, mistaking them for Iraqi Hinds that were violating the No-Fly Zone.

Or just turn and face the on coming jet. :rolleyes:

...which will helpfully hold fire until he is close enough to get shot in the face by the Apache gun.

BV (am I allowed to use the roll eyes emoji or has that been done too much already?!)

Know nothing of the British Apaches, are they equipped to carry the AIM -9?

For those not in the know, it is not shooting fish in a barrel when its FJ vs RW, especially if the heli crew are trained. Without divulging tactics on a public forum, the slow mover can actually have a big advantage over a FJ.

Pontius.

A fascinating read. May I highlight a couple of points?

The concluding phase of that trial took place in 1979. Things may have moved on slightly since then.

Sorry to be facetious.

BV

The way Black Hawk crews fly (in my experience) this is not in the least surprising.

Heights good.

Agreed that we won't discuss tactics. When you say advantage for the helos I assume you mean they are able to survive quite regularly. I also assume you're not suggesting they score many kills?!

BV

I'm enjoying this thread by the way. In our own heads, we're all correct.

Bed time for me now though.

BV

A cheeky bit of strafe against a helo was always fun to practice. However, these days ASRAAM with helmet cuing would be the weapon of choice for a FJ, no need to worry about losing IR due to rotor downwash with that bad boy!

Oh, and even with less capable weapons there have been plenty of FJ vs Helo kills:

6 Feb 1991
USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Bo-105
A USAF A-10 ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Bo-105 helicopter using its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

7 Feb 1991 USN F-14 vs. IRAF Mi-8
A USN F-14 shoots down an IRAF Mi-8 helicopter with an AIM-9 missile. It is the last USN F-14 air-to-air kill

11 Feb 1991 USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF helicopters
Two F-15Cs shoot down two unidentified Iraqi helicopters by using AIM-7 missiles for both.

14 Feb 1991 USAF F-15E vs. IRAF Hughes 500
An F-15E Strike Eagle fighter/bomber dropped a laser-guided bomb onto a Hughes 500 helicopter in the air. The helicopter was on the ground initially loading up commandos, though it took off. Even with it taking off they left the laser on it and the bomb hit it when it was "200 or so" feet in the air.

15 Feb 1991 USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Mi-8
An A-10A ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Mi-8 helicopter with its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

In 1978, a Soviet Mig-23 Flogger intercepted 4 Iranian CH-47 Chinook helicopters inside Soviet airspace, shooting one of them down and damaging another.

In 1988, two Soviet Mig-23 Floggers shot down a pair of Iranian AH-1J Super Cobra attack helicopters over western Afghanistan.

On 7 January 1992, an Italian Army Bell 206 helicopter was shot down by a Serbian MiG in Croatia.

Survival, however even if a GPMG/M134 is very unlikely to shoot down a jet, tracer whizzing past will probably focus the mind of a FJ pilot 😀

Frankly, with a GPMG, a crewman is unlikely to hit the sky!

CG

Kudos to those who may have used them (carried them) in anger, as opposed to us CW fliers who fired 'em annually!

What is the max positive g of the Puma in a steep turn? And is it symmetric or does it have a weaker turn direction?

FJ v helo is always going to be in horizontal plane, so turn radius and roll rate are the deciders. Typhoon will win easily on roll rate, but I would guess Puma has a smaller minimum turn radius?

Wow, some of you have some interesting ideas. The B Word spells out some interesting data points on how, not in an exercise, things have gone.

????

The helo might be largely restricted to the horizontal plane, but the FJ certainly isn't.

There was a proposal to fit Starstreak pods to the Apache (even went as far as test firings Starstreak missile being fired from an Apache attack helicopter. - Image - Army Technology).

B Word,


Any examples that don't include elite Iraqi/Iranian/Italian aircraft?


CG,


I reckon an M134D would put enough lead in enough sky to make the puffer jet pilot drop his lipstick.

We've been round this particular "circle of joy" many times.....including this one where it rapidly descended from a good debate into into a FJ v RW "I'm better than you" load of nonsense.......

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...-v-heli-s.html

In sum, a well equipped helo (RWR/Chaff/SPJ/DIRCM/MWS etc) with good SA, excellent crew co-operation and trained in A-A tactics is a difficult target to find, track and kill (both radar and visually) - but this is terrain and weather dependant. A completely unaware, ill-equipped and non-trained helo is still hard to find visually if down at low level but may present a very simple BVR/IR Mx opportunity. For the Helo to "win" it often merely has to survive. Shooting down the FJ is the last thing on your mind, scaring it off, keeping out of its weapon arcs (increasingly hard with HMDCS and off-boresight Mx) until help arrives or running it out of fuel are normally the best options. Re the AH gun, having looked at gun tape of it trying to track me, I'd suggest it's optimised for ground target crossing rates; maybe, at best, a slashing guns shot A-A. The AH can carry Stingers but, with all things, it compromises weight and pylon space - many AH users now put additional podded DAS sensors on the ends of the wings.

Evalu8ter,

Very good summary. From a fast jet point of view a well flown helo was always a very challenging target. Having done a considerable amount including on NVGs it was the advent of HMS and certain a-a missiles that have made the fighter pilots task much easier. The latest heat seekers can be used as a FLIR and can be used to get the pilots eyes on, even night lights out. Obviously RWR/Chaff/SPJ/DIRCM/MWS become essential against a fighter that is so equipped.

I have never seen any study as to the use of an LGB to take out a helo? I would imagine a 500 or 1000lb going bang close by would not be too good?

USAF F-15E on Mil-24, GW1

F-15E scored dropped a bomb on an Iraqi helicopter - Business Insider

Evalu8tor, and of course there is a major draw back for a well camouflaged low flying helo over plain desert in bright sunlight - shadow.

BV - I think the CRV7s might prove a useful deterrent to any FJ wishing to make a casual strafe of an Apache.

The Apache radar is a significant advantage over the Mk1 eyeball available to most helicopter crews.

CRV7?! A-A?! That's a new one. Assuming the FJ ever closed for guns (let's remember when you see a Puma and a Typhoon playing in this fashion its not really representative of what a Typhoon would do for real) then the Apache would have to turn and face the FJ and carefully aim it's one shot at a highly agile FJ. What odds would you give on that being successful?

I think we're straying into Hollywood territory now.

BV

D2 - I had a pair of F15E use 4x LGB on me over the North Sea once; I'd trashed every BVR/Heater shot (I was, for once, carrying live chaff/flare as well) and, well, being F15E guys using Fighting Edge they were not coming down to play with guns....The lack of RW speed makes it very hard to escape the frag envelope - analogous to "Bomb in the Face" supposedly considered by strike aircraft being chased down at low level...Re FPA Mx, I'd agree with you having done trials with/against ASRAAM. We found a few things out about it (not for these means) but, along with off-boresight HMDCS targeted weapons and AESA radars, it moves the game on so the RW community need to change equipment and tactics - but only, of course, if we fight a near-peer and the OCA/DCA guys have let "leakers" through....

PN - not just shadow but also use of camouflage (I would deliberately try to find every Oil Seed Rape field and join them up to see if my Students was paying attention...), blowing sand (it shows up better than the cab) and spray/wake over water. Also don't forget sun glint if manoeuvring.

Crab - CRV7 A-A would be a low PK shot unless the FJ was not manoeuvring. That said, the Iranian's claimed a MiG shot down by a Cobra TOW (!) and the Iraqi's claimed an F4 with a Sagger (both unlikely in my view...). The Zuni did score a couple of A-A kills in VN. The AH also has an RFI / RWR combo if it didn't want to use the FCR. The frequency of the FCR is also out of range for many FJ RWRs.....maybe a RF/Laser Hellfire/Brimstone against a slow moving unaware CAS aircraft is a possibility....

I didn't say it would be accurate but a faceful of CRV 7s plus 30 mm cannon would certainly deter all but the most eager FJ looking for an easy target.

Yes it would be a head on shot but that's what we used to do against the Lightnings since their cannon were mounted about 2 degrees nose up and it forced them to shove the nose down to get a solution.

However, as previously mentioned, providing you can see/detect the helo in the first place then missiles from a longer range are much easier for the kill.

Crab.

As a FJ driver I'm not saying I would relish the thought of a faceful of rockets and bullets but think about practicality. CRV7 is a boresight weapon. The FJ will come in steep if they intend to strafe. Can you see where I'm going with this?

BV