The way Black Hawk crews fly (in my experience) this is not in the least surprising.

Heights good.

Agreed that we won't discuss tactics. When you say advantage for the helos I assume you mean they are able to survive quite regularly. I also assume you're not suggesting they score many kills?!

BV

I'm enjoying this thread by the way. In our own heads, we're all correct.

Bed time for me now though.

BV

A cheeky bit of strafe against a helo was always fun to practice. However, these days ASRAAM with helmet cuing would be the weapon of choice for a FJ, no need to worry about losing IR due to rotor downwash with that bad boy!

Oh, and even with less capable weapons there have been plenty of FJ vs Helo kills:

6 Feb 1991
USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Bo-105
A USAF A-10 ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Bo-105 helicopter using its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

7 Feb 1991 USN F-14 vs. IRAF Mi-8
A USN F-14 shoots down an IRAF Mi-8 helicopter with an AIM-9 missile. It is the last USN F-14 air-to-air kill

11 Feb 1991 USAF F-15Cs vs. IRAF helicopters
Two F-15Cs shoot down two unidentified Iraqi helicopters by using AIM-7 missiles for both.

14 Feb 1991 USAF F-15E vs. IRAF Hughes 500
An F-15E Strike Eagle fighter/bomber dropped a laser-guided bomb onto a Hughes 500 helicopter in the air. The helicopter was on the ground initially loading up commandos, though it took off. Even with it taking off they left the laser on it and the bomb hit it when it was "200 or so" feet in the air.

15 Feb 1991 USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Mi-8
An A-10A ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Mi-8 helicopter with its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

In 1978, a Soviet Mig-23 Flogger intercepted 4 Iranian CH-47 Chinook helicopters inside Soviet airspace, shooting one of them down and damaging another.

In 1988, two Soviet Mig-23 Floggers shot down a pair of Iranian AH-1J Super Cobra attack helicopters over western Afghanistan.

On 7 January 1992, an Italian Army Bell 206 helicopter was shot down by a Serbian MiG in Croatia.

Survival, however even if a GPMG/M134 is very unlikely to shoot down a jet, tracer whizzing past will probably focus the mind of a FJ pilot 😀

Frankly, with a GPMG, a crewman is unlikely to hit the sky!

CG

Kudos to those who may have used them (carried them) in anger, as opposed to us CW fliers who fired 'em annually!

What is the max positive g of the Puma in a steep turn? And is it symmetric or does it have a weaker turn direction?

FJ v helo is always going to be in horizontal plane, so turn radius and roll rate are the deciders. Typhoon will win easily on roll rate, but I would guess Puma has a smaller minimum turn radius?

Wow, some of you have some interesting ideas. The B Word spells out some interesting data points on how, not in an exercise, things have gone.

????

The helo might be largely restricted to the horizontal plane, but the FJ certainly isn't.

There was a proposal to fit Starstreak pods to the Apache (even went as far as test firings Starstreak missile being fired from an Apache attack helicopter. - Image - Army Technology).

B Word,


Any examples that don't include elite Iraqi/Iranian/Italian aircraft?


CG,


I reckon an M134D would put enough lead in enough sky to make the puffer jet pilot drop his lipstick.

We've been round this particular "circle of joy" many times.....including this one where it rapidly descended from a good debate into into a FJ v RW "I'm better than you" load of nonsense.......

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...-v-heli-s.html

In sum, a well equipped helo (RWR/Chaff/SPJ/DIRCM/MWS etc) with good SA, excellent crew co-operation and trained in A-A tactics is a difficult target to find, track and kill (both radar and visually) - but this is terrain and weather dependant. A completely unaware, ill-equipped and non-trained helo is still hard to find visually if down at low level but may present a very simple BVR/IR Mx opportunity. For the Helo to "win" it often merely has to survive. Shooting down the FJ is the last thing on your mind, scaring it off, keeping out of its weapon arcs (increasingly hard with HMDCS and off-boresight Mx) until help arrives or running it out of fuel are normally the best options. Re the AH gun, having looked at gun tape of it trying to track me, I'd suggest it's optimised for ground target crossing rates; maybe, at best, a slashing guns shot A-A. The AH can carry Stingers but, with all things, it compromises weight and pylon space - many AH users now put additional podded DAS sensors on the ends of the wings.

Evalu8ter,

Very good summary. From a fast jet point of view a well flown helo was always a very challenging target. Having done a considerable amount including on NVGs it was the advent of HMS and certain a-a missiles that have made the fighter pilots task much easier. The latest heat seekers can be used as a FLIR and can be used to get the pilots eyes on, even night lights out. Obviously RWR/Chaff/SPJ/DIRCM/MWS become essential against a fighter that is so equipped.

I have never seen any study as to the use of an LGB to take out a helo? I would imagine a 500 or 1000lb going bang close by would not be too good?

USAF F-15E on Mil-24, GW1

F-15E scored dropped a bomb on an Iraqi helicopter - Business Insider

Evalu8tor, and of course there is a major draw back for a well camouflaged low flying helo over plain desert in bright sunlight - shadow.

BV - I think the CRV7s might prove a useful deterrent to any FJ wishing to make a casual strafe of an Apache.

The Apache radar is a significant advantage over the Mk1 eyeball available to most helicopter crews.

CRV7?! A-A?! That's a new one. Assuming the FJ ever closed for guns (let's remember when you see a Puma and a Typhoon playing in this fashion its not really representative of what a Typhoon would do for real) then the Apache would have to turn and face the FJ and carefully aim it's one shot at a highly agile FJ. What odds would you give on that being successful?

I think we're straying into Hollywood territory now.

BV

D2 - I had a pair of F15E use 4x LGB on me over the North Sea once; I'd trashed every BVR/Heater shot (I was, for once, carrying live chaff/flare as well) and, well, being F15E guys using Fighting Edge they were not coming down to play with guns....The lack of RW speed makes it very hard to escape the frag envelope - analogous to "Bomb in the Face" supposedly considered by strike aircraft being chased down at low level...Re FPA Mx, I'd agree with you having done trials with/against ASRAAM. We found a few things out about it (not for these means) but, along with off-boresight HMDCS targeted weapons and AESA radars, it moves the game on so the RW community need to change equipment and tactics - but only, of course, if we fight a near-peer and the OCA/DCA guys have let "leakers" through....

PN - not just shadow but also use of camouflage (I would deliberately try to find every Oil Seed Rape field and join them up to see if my Students was paying attention...), blowing sand (it shows up better than the cab) and spray/wake over water. Also don't forget sun glint if manoeuvring.

Crab - CRV7 A-A would be a low PK shot unless the FJ was not manoeuvring. That said, the Iranian's claimed a MiG shot down by a Cobra TOW (!) and the Iraqi's claimed an F4 with a Sagger (both unlikely in my view...). The Zuni did score a couple of A-A kills in VN. The AH also has an RFI / RWR combo if it didn't want to use the FCR. The frequency of the FCR is also out of range for many FJ RWRs.....maybe a RF/Laser Hellfire/Brimstone against a slow moving unaware CAS aircraft is a possibility....

I didn't say it would be accurate but a faceful of CRV 7s plus 30 mm cannon would certainly deter all but the most eager FJ looking for an easy target.

Yes it would be a head on shot but that's what we used to do against the Lightnings since their cannon were mounted about 2 degrees nose up and it forced them to shove the nose down to get a solution.

However, as previously mentioned, providing you can see/detect the helo in the first place then missiles from a longer range are much easier for the kill.

Crab.

As a FJ driver I'm not saying I would relish the thought of a faceful of rockets and bullets but think about practicality. CRV7 is a boresight weapon. The FJ will come in steep if they intend to strafe. Can you see where I'm going with this?

BV