Aircrew Armed ?
 

So I watched 'Blackhawk down' last night and during the scene where Mike Durant defends himself with an MP5 I wondered if RAF aircrew and pilots are armed in the event they are shot down and if so what with? L22 Carbine?

OpSec IMO. but no doubt others will disagree.

Used to be an old Browning 9mm SLP, i think they have now switched to the Glock 17 or 19 9mm pistol.

IIRC In 'Tornado Down' so GW1 of course JN and JP talked about pistols when they were approached by Iraqi troops?

History: I recall reading a book about the outbreak of war and the aircrew all being issued with Webleys. The statistic escapes me but there were quite a few shots heard around the Mess that evening and one pilot was hospitalised with a gunshot wound.
Today: Carbine, Glock and a vicious fighting knife that would see me arrested if out and about with it in the UK.

In 1943 in Burma they gave me a .38 Smith & Wesson, and 18 rounds: "That's the lot", they said, "No more - sell your life dearly".

Thanks a lot !

If i remember correctly from Tornado Down, they talked about the pistol being in the ejection survival kit.

I recall during GW1, one of the RSAF aircrew playing with his automatic pistol in the cockpit; he dropped the magazine onto the floor, where several rounds fell out....

On another occasion, while checking his pistol in the ops room, another aircrew member fired a round into the ceiling....

Sounds dangerous this war stuff... ;)

Danny. It progressed. In Aden '67 we had the same, but only twelve rounds Defence cuts? Mind you, if you insisted, it was possible to draw a Stirling SMG with, IIRC, two magazines of twenty rounds each. I guess it kept the enemy's heads down until the rescue chopper came.

After the Browning came the Walter, 7.62? Fewer rounds than the Browning. Plenty of practise, annual shoot with very few rounds. Group and then snap, jammed rounds drill and magazine change.

What was never discussed was tactical use and ROE. We always fired two handed from standing position at the charging enemy just 15 metres away. If in the middle of nowhere faced by one man I might have been tempted. Two men - not a chance.

If an unarmed person discovered you, could you shoot him? If you did and were then caught I don't think you would get a fair trial. If he was armed I don't think his mates would have been that happy either.

I've got a feeling that Apache crews carry the Glock and also an SA80 in the aircraft........

Arc

When I was an AAC pilot we were issued with a Browning 9mm automatic and 2 full magazines. But that was a long time ago.

NEO

Again thats what i recall the descision of the 'Tornado Down' aircrew decided when several Republican Guard were advancing on them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpiaP_yaIg
From about 11:30 they discuss that.

Crewmen were routinely armed with a 9mm pistol and 10 rounds; and an SLR with 20. But only on a particular det/posting.

CG

In my time there, pilots got 3 full mags (of 10 rounds each?) for the 9mm and two of 30 each for the SA80.

Crewmen were obviously deemed better shots (or more expendable).... :p

(If you discount the box of 200 7.62 mm for the machine gun, that is).

Goodness knows how far over the coals you'd get dragged for actually firing any of them - losing a round was almost a hanging offence.

Slight thread drift, but I remember in the 70's on exercises and guard duty we were armed with a pick-axe handle.

Saintsman,

Same thing ("pick-helves") in 1941. All the rifles were needed for the Home Guard. Should've thought the supply position was a bit better thirty years later. Perhaps someone had negotiated a crafty contract for pick-helves !

I wonder what happened to them all.

Danny.

We had a jaapie copilot on Victors who had a (UK) licensed Mauser. On overseas trips he flew with it stored in a kind of 'speed rig' holster under his left armpit under his flying suit. He left in the aircraft on overnight stops.

When I was on the kipper fleet I often flew with a Brownie and a magazine...Playboy mostly, sometimes Penthouse.

All tanker crews deployed on OP GRANBY were issued with the deadly 9mm SLP and 2 mags. Quite why, I don't know - the likelihood of a VC10K surviving a crash landing in a hostile area was akin to snowballs in hell.

Come Endex, or rather Endwar, when the rounds were counted back not a single one had been lost!

When my father was at ?????? (better not say), he had a number of Sterling guns stored under the stairs.
Was a nuclear establishment. I worked not too far away where they had some 'dial-a-nuke' (not UK obviously).

Back in the late 50's and early 60's at Gutersloh the Hunter and Swift drivers would have been armed with the same kit that Danny had in WW2 - 38 Smith and Wesson revolver and 12 rounds of ammo. Each year there was the ceremonial practice session conducted on the Station range. Many pranks played including hiding someone's hat behind the target, etc.

If push had ever come to shove there we only about 30 Smith and Wessons in the armoury to share among over 80 drivers. I suppose the logic was they would not all be airborne at the same time - a bit like the aircraft when you come to think of it!

PN

Walther PPK or PP 7.65mm, seven in the mag and one up the spout. Prone to jamming (don't tell Mr Bond), in fact Insp James Beaton found this to his cost in 1974 when he attempted to bring down Princess Anne's assailent in the Mall. He did however end up being shot himself whilst attempting to clear the PPK. Messrs Peters & Nichols surmised it would probably be better to throw the Walthers at the oncoming enemy troops.

TB, when armed in the Nimrod we would probably have used the 9mm for shooting empty RAT packets in or dinghy or capturing a Kresta had ne come sailing by.

The .38 had a jumpy hammer. It was not unknown for it to fire if one jumped from the aircraft and landed a bit smartish on the ground. Five in the chamber only, and an empty one under the hammer.

I remember being issued with a Belgian hammerless revolver and six rounds. The gun I got was filthy - barrel full of dust. I cleaned it and on one jaunt I fired a shot to assure myself that it would fire. There was hell to pay when we got back -- there was a round missing!!

Spent over 10 years flying with a trusty Browning 9mm plus 10 rounds. On the ground it was 4 mags of 9mm (13/12/12/13) and awesome training for that role. Latter years the most impressive addition was the Heckler & Koch HK53 with 2 x 25 round mags twin clipped to the weapon. Our cockpit was too cramped for the SA80 (thank god!) and the HK came with sliding stock to make it compact. The HK53 was a slightly longer barrel 5.56mm version of the MP5 and far better than the SA80. Add each front crew's Browning and HK to the rear crew LSW and GPMG plus 400 rounds made it an impressive crew weapon load.
Several years later and another location saw Chinese made AK-47 and Makarov 9mm as issued personal weapons (and the buckshee 7.62 FN and 1000 rounds left by the predecessor) for use flying and on the ground. So yes - some aircrew do end up with some interesting kit depending on their role. Kbc

What aircraft was this ?

On the original question, the answer is yes.
It's not any secret, press photos often showed the weapons.
The amount of 'heat packed' depended on the space availability. On operations, I felt comfortably able to defend myself for a short amount of time. On one particular mission , we could have defended ourselves for a month.

jayteeto, and therein lies the rub. A 9mm and 13 rounds is not worth the trouble carrying it. Even as static aircraft guarding it is useless. As a personal weapon of an FOB, coming face to face with intruders, you might have a slim chance apart from the Rock paranoia of making safe when you go into a building.

As individual downed aircrew, even if two of you join up, you are going to be luck to survive a shoot out.

That was probably the same guy who when the singlies went to down town Ting a Ling for Pizza asked me to get something out of his glove compartment, only to find a pistol with ammo - his excuse, he represented the RAF shooting team and had forgotten to put it back in the armoury (assuming he ever did).

At Akrotiri, early 60's, the guard of the 'bomb dump' that contained nukes, was armed with a pick handle.

When the Greek v Turk trouble blew up and 2 Para arrived, they took over such duties with SLR's of some sort.

Back in the late 50s early 60s, I was a TA REME 25pdr gunfitter and we were all a bit relaxed about firearms and ammo.
Even took some .303 rounds to the workshop and dismantled them, burnt off the cordite and banged the initiator. Never tried burning a whole 25pdr bag of cordite :E

Back to Aden in '67, not convinced about the effectiveness and stopping power of a WWI revolver, on leaving Riyan in a hurry at the end of August I somehow acquired a GPMG and box of 7.62mm. Bit of a haul lugging it across dispersal, stowed it under the cabin seats but when the boss found out I was holding it on the squadron for ready access, it's days were numbered. Took most of a morning to get the Khormaksar armoury to take it on charge, maybe the previous Hereford owners had forgotten to provide proper paperwork.
And then in Nortern Ireland we had progressed to the 9mm Browning - which one morning upset our crew room uckers relaxation when a guy (green shield and new to such items) demonstrated the clearance drill -NOT!

And the lessons drawn from the likes of this and Bravo Two Zero - always shoot the goat herder!

I carry around 'old painless'.......

Melchett, which returns to my question about ROE.

I wonder if there were many instances in WW 2, if aircrew were armed, or Vietnam, where aircrew used a pistol in E&E.

I imagine at night or in the jungle your chances would have been different whereas in open country shoot one and you have given your position away.

BEagle (#21),

When it was All Over, I handed in my S&W and the 18 rounds. Not one had been fired. I could probably have done more damage (if needs had been) with the kukri, which I wore on the other hip to balance it.

On VE day, some Wild Colonial Boys fired feux-de-joie through the Mess basha roof, this was much deprecated by the elders, as it brought down an assortment of unpleasant invertebrates which dwelt in the palm thatch and were better left up there.

Danny.

I think we have finally settled on a pistol, for now at least. For me the merry-go-round has been: Browning -> Walther PP -> Browning (again) -> Sig P228 > Browning (again, again) -> Sig P226 -> Glock 19.