At the risk of being a complete doom merchant, Osborne is vehemently against the principle of incremental pay - aren't the armed forces one if the only public sector bodies still to receive it? And how much did UK forces being in Afghanistan back in 2010 play into the decision to exempt us at the time of the last CSR ? And I wonder if the Afghan dividend will see that previous decision reversed - pay freezes and no increments?

It's already been done for pay on promotion under NEM (mark time for 2 years as you grow in to the new rank) so what's to stop it happening for everyone for a couple of years on top of a pay freeze?

I hate to say I told you so, but I did.

Three Weeks Into A New Parliament And Defence Is Already Being Hit With £1 Billion Cuts - Breitbart

well they should be able to scrape up a billion - its about the cost of a new set of tyres on the F-35

but its the constant lies I can't stand..... not two weeks since they were sayign how important defence was and now :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Well, who did you vote for?

That is the only language they understand, in the same way that the only language big business understands is where you choose to spend your money.

Someone please, please tell me why the government decides to protect the aid budget?! Why on earth give a country that has its own independent space programme money!

Hawk,

While not defending the aid budget, I think the example you are referring to is an urban myth. I'm working from memory here (forgive me for that), but I seem to remember reading on another pprune thread not long ago that none/very little of the UK aid budget goes to India any more.

This being pprune, no doubt someone else will be along shortly with the truth and a link to back it up.....

It would appear that the following were the top 20 recipients of UK aid in 2013:

Pakistan, Ethiopia, Bangladesh, India, Nigeria, Afghanistan, DROC, Kenya, Tanzania, Syria, South Sudan, Malawi, Somalia, Ghana, Rwanda, Myanmar,Yemen, Zimbabwe, Nepal and St Helena. They collectively accounted for ~70% of the aid budget

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-5.csv/preview

India got £269M and dropped to fourth biggest recipient having been the largest UK aid recipient in 2009 and 2012, years for which figures are given. I'm curious to know where in Europe accounts for the ~1% of the aid budget.

I'm even more curious to know why we gave China £75M in aid in 2009 when its GDP appears to have been close to $5 Trillion whilst the UK's was nearer to $2.3 Trillion

Melchett

That's a point well made. I for one am not a fan of ODA - sure we should send money for disaster relief, but that should be it. Charities should take this on; if I choose to give some of my hard earned cash to help another country then that's my choice and not the Govt's with our money.

LJ

Do you choose to give your cash to benefit scroungers, Leon? But it does seem ridiculous to give money to countries with bigger economies than the UK's. It always strikes me as "if I give you some of my pocket money, will you be my friend?"

I didn't used to agree with either of you CM or Leon.

It made sense to me that it had to be a far better way of 'affecting change' than conflicts - anything had to be better value for money than the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But having seen the corruption and inability of money to filter down to those we are trying to help I have revised my views.

While I dislike the concept of us and them - whether it be between departments in company, different military services or countries - I think we are wasting our time trying benefit third world countries with aid.

I do think that we would eliminate some of the world's problems by sharing our wealth with the have not - but I think it must be via trade and not aid. Changing corporate trading rules would achieve much more.

Some of the comments on here regarding the International Development Budget beggar belief.

Leaving aside (reluctantly) the clear moral ambiguity of a country (whose prosperity and wealth has largely been created by colonising the assets of countries across the globe) sidestepping its international responsibilities, does anyone on here seriously think if all of this budget was cancelled tomorrow, one penny of it would go to defence?

The very idea is risible.

I'm all for prioritising defence and security at the expense of other budgets, but how about we cut out the pointless xenophobia.

For me the answer clear - if we want better armed forces (which I for one do) we should simply pay more tax.

Since that's not going to happen in a month of Sunday's, nor is defence going to get any money earmarked for more socially acceptable public services, I guess we just accept we are in the democratic minority.

Being in a minority should not be an excuse for posting specious bilge though should it?

I'm not aware that there's any xenophobia (or racism) here. The recent posts have not displayed any deep rooted and irrational fear of foreigners, or expressed any notion that one nation or race is superior to another.

What has been expressed is a deep rooted scepticism in the judgement of a particular government policy and the lack of accountability and oversight of how tax payers' money is being spent overseas, when in fact there are plenty of pressing problems at home that could be eased with a fraction of that money was given to the likes of India and China with their own advanced weapons programmes.

So let's park up the outrage bus and ease up on politically charged accusations that will only send what is a logical, legitimate and reasonably well debated thread swiftly to closure. Let's leave them to the NAAFI forum on ARRSE and EGoat.

The aid budget is sacrosanct because (a) the Uk has signed an agreeent to pay a certain % GDP in overseas aid and (b) Cameron's social-liberalism means he 'won't reduce the deficeit on the backs of the world's poor'

Actually, Davef, despite any personal views, that is the best explanation I've seen in this forum on the subject of aid. :ok:

Anyone got a rough idea of the breakdown* of the defence budget, a brief bit of googling isn't revealing much?

* % on wages/equipment/infrastructure etc. I seem to remember equipment being ~1/3 of the overall expenditure.

Anyhoo, a 1% rise in equipment costs allied with an overall cut in expenditure of £1Bn is going to lead to some tough decisions (job cuts/equipment cuts/pay freezes). Hard to see much being saved by mere efficiency savings.

Willard, have a look here:

House of Commons - The Ministry of Defence Main Estimates 2014-15 - Defence Committee

One of the seriously big drains on the defence budget is JSF. It was the same for Typhoon some years ago and there is no plan B so the project will continue to suck up cash.

That and the carriers (and everything else they entail) means an ever shrinking pool from which to make savings, especially if there is even a small pay rise. And I doubt this 1billion will be the last cut this year...

Courtney,

I think you're right on the JSF, even with all the questions - on both sides of the Atlantic - about whether it's the right platform. However, just look at what they did to Nimrod - there's always a plan B, it's just that sometimes it's so utterly unpalatable that we refuse to acknowledge it. So just where is the final red line for JSF and the carriers? Is there even a red line as per Nimrod?

Without the JSF the carriers are pointless, but there may come a time when it's actually cheaper and operationally sensible to scrap JSF, buy COTS and sell the carriers and start from scratch. I can imagine the uproar, both politically and militarily, but if the Osborne doctrine, where the cure is as bad as the illness, persists and everything is up for grabs, I can see a world where that is at least considered in MOD as a plan B.

This is my favourite ODA cartoon:

http://conservativepapers.com/wp-con...n-aid-1001.jpg

Sums it up for me and why we should stop it.

For Courtney, no I don't agree that my money should go to benefit scroungers, but I do believe on some of my taxes going to people in this country that are in a desperate state and need it (and that includes any race, colour or religion - "xenophobic", my arse!).

LJ :ok:

Here is a Plan B for QE and PoW...

http://i49.tinypic.com/2jtjl4.jpg

Ski jump one end and PUAG bolted on the other. Cheap as chips...:}

LJ