F-16 low approach, Wadders.
 

Courtesy of theaviationist.com

Hit the deck !!

The Aviationist » [Video] Turkish F-16?s ultra low landing at Waddington Airshow

...looks impressive but does raise more than a few questions:confused:

Recall a similar antic on a sqn exchange some years back; the Belgian pilot concerned was asked to take himself and his jet back across the English Channel from whence he came.

Really not very funny. Or impressive.
Gash t*at

Low landing?


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For those that haven't been there, what is or should be the normal height for an aircraft at that point ?

I gather from the Typhoon video that the runway starts straight after the fence.

Those spotters are within the area of the undershoot that has red flashing lights on the road saying 'Stop when red lights show'
So what's the problem Chris kebab, SFCC?

Are you that are, seriously slating the pilot here!! What about the idiots in the undershoot. I have made my views clear about this matter in a thread in ATC Issues.
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/543...n-airshow.html

Duplicate post
 

Ranger 703, sorry I did not spot your earlier post and link to this F-16 clip, maybe MODS can delete this thread ?

Bollocks. All my landings are low. Nothing gash, nothing wrong, getting low is something you have to do if you want to land. That fence is very close to the threshold at Waddo. If the pilot flies his approach to touch down on the numbers, that is where I would expect him to be.

So, if you think he's a **** or gash or anything else, you just explain why, what you think he was doing and how that doesn't fit with a proper landing. Remember, a lot of the ac that land at Waddo do so way beyond the piano keys (50 metres over the thrash old?).

Courtney, The red wine must have got to you. Obviously, all of your landings were low, most at ground level I assume! 10 years ago while boltholed at Waddo there was a Mirage and then F15 that attacked the fence on the approach to RW21. OC Ops asked for advice on how to reduce the risk and was advised to displace the threshold. He was advised that "Fast Jet pilots" are taught to land "On the Numbers", not at the Instrument Touchdown Point.
As he was reluctant to do this the measure that was introduced was to paint the fence Red and White, as seen in video clip.
There is no doubt that the F16, Mirage, F15 pilots and many more were dragging-in their approach. Most fast jets are designed to land from a 3 degree approach. The last ac I knew about that needed a shallow approach was a F104.
I'm sure that we all remember that a shallow approach spreads the "landing footprint" over a larger area. Obviously in the case of a QWI this would not be true.
Maybe when Waddo gets a new, longer runway in 2015 the Piano Keys will be the correct distance from the beginning of the runway to avoid such close calls in he future.

I reckon it's around 640 ft from 'the numbers' to the A15 under the final approach path at Waddo:


Which means anyone intending to touch down on the numbers, if using a normal 2½° - 3° approach, should be no lower than 27-34 ft when clearing the near edge of the road (ex-QWIs can do triggernometry, so will know that this is 640 x tan (approach angle) - n'est ce pas, Courtney?).

Spotters hanging on the fence at Brize could often be deterred by a late-notice VC10 go-around. It took a bit of practice, but if you got the timing right you could call "Simulated runway incursion, GO AROUND!" to one's student and the gentle purr of 4 Conways at max chat would be achieved just as we passed the spotter.....:E

Here we go...

seems daft plods had not cleared the idiots from the approach

Melmothtw, and your point is? I am not saying that Landing on the Numbers is correct, I am just saying that is what is taught - almost worldwide.

Not disparaging you Dominator, it's just that we had a similar thread running a couple of years back I think in which 'fast jet pilots are taught to land on the numbers' came up, and it all got rather heated between some in the FJ community and some in the multi-engine community.

My 'hear we go' comment was just me getting ready for a re-run.

Maybe we should get this German pilot over?

Fox3WMB,

Indeed - even more "impressive" viewed from the POV of spectators on the road:


Or this one:

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content...ow-landing.jpg

Or this one:

http://theaviationist.com/wp-content...RNlAF-NF-5.jpg

Having been a Fast Jet Pilot for nearly 40 years allows me some right to comment. There is no doubt that any pilot should understand his ac performance and be able to land at the "correct place". Performance is not only Max Rate and Min Radius.
Clearing a hedge/fence by 10 ft is clearly unacceptable in anyones language.
The majority of such approaches are due to misjudgement or "pilot error" of some type. If not, they either had a piss poor QFI/IP or are God Gifted (QWI)?!!!

Having been in and around FJs for quite some time, that angle isn't exactly unusual. I too remember the M2000 shaped undercarriage holes in the Waddo fence in the 90s after an ACMI mission.

The Manual of Aerodrome Design and Safeguarding requires the approach surface to miss the road by 4.5 metres. The civvy CAP168 requires a bit more at 4.8 metres (yes another whole 30cm!). That is aiming at the runway strip that starts 60m before the declared threshold; so that eats into the 640ft that BEagle has measured quite significantly! So at ~15ft over the heads of these numpties, I don't believe that the viper driver has broken any rules on his approach.

As for the idiots in the undershoot - ever heard of Charles Darwin? And as for the idiot waving his walking stick, well that just beggars belief and is typical of the type of numb-skull that will complain afterwards that they were nearly killed in the local rag.

Interesting to hear the aircrew perspective on this as always. From the other side I'm very familiar with the area (2 tours as RAFP at Waddo) and just wonder what the law is in relation to the people standing there. When an aircraft is on approach to that area the A15 red lights are activated (by ATC?) which clearly stop traffic, as they do on a railway crossing. But do they also act as an advisory for pedestrians that they should not be in the area. If I cross a railway crossing when the flashing red lights are activated then surely the risk and responsibility if I come to harm is on me as there were clear warning signs.

PS. It comes from ICAO...

814man

Exactly, they can do it. But just because it's legal doesn't make it a good idea - I can pick my nose whilst driving in fog at 70 mph on a wet road, legal it is, stupid as well!

LJ

Not if you're a clever dick.

Those rules on road heights apply to open roads upon which traffic is travelling.

If traffic is using the road then the reference height is surface+4.5m, but if the traffic is stopped (as it is at Waddo by the flashing red lights either side) then you can use the road surface as your reference height.

This is why Waddo has to stop the traffic for a/c movements, otherwise the road traffic would infringe the approach/climbout surfaces.

interesting question 814 , the railway comparison is a different thing as the railways and their access are covered under their own very old system. Be interested to know if with an airfield approach its just a warning for info or is it enforceable as some kind of trespass ?

Waddo undershoot
 

Having once been lowered into the grass in Waddington's undershoot by an A1 QFI I can report that it is quite a gentle, pleasurable experience. It is, however, one that I am in no hurry to repeat.

GZ, was this in an aircraft, or during a hand in hand stroll after some wine?

The boys and girls from Lincs Police were posted either side of the fence at the end of the runway today, and stopped anyone from going into that area with ladders or anything.

They did not stop them from sitting on the lights over the road however....

Still as there probably won't be another airshow at Waddo again, we will not have to worry (if that's whats happening after the refurb) in 2016????

V1

It's all a bit of a laugh until someone loses an eye...

- King Harold, 1066

814, if you did two tours as a snowdrop shouldn't you know what the law is?


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If this was an organised, advertised 'Airshow', I am simply amazed that the people running it would allow spectators anywhere near any overshoot areas at all. That guy cops some shear and cleans some of those people up, surely there would be a valid argument that the legal duty of care lays with the organisers? Why take that risk??

Whilst LJ is correct with all the 'angle of dangle' stuff, the pragmatic answer is to displace the threshold at Waddington. I'm not sure it still needs 9000ft of Tarmac for landing (sorry, don't have E3, Sentinel, RJ manuals to hand to confirm whether a reduction of LDA by 500ft or so would significantly hinder performance).

Courtney, it's actually 50 ft threshold crossing height, which would mean a touchdown point roughly 1000 ft into the RW. Whereas crossing the threshold at 50 m on a 3° approach would mean a touchdown some 3130 ft down the RW....

If the requirement really is to have a clear area to account for an aim point 60m short of the RW threshold, then that would imply a minimum height of only 14.8 ft over the near side of the A15 on a 3° approach....which equals 4.52m.

Anyway, enough of the trigonometry. Because however you look at it, standing underneath the RW approach that close to the A15 is utterly stupid - and most certainly 'Darwinian'!

Google Earth shows the threshold some 4' below the road as well

NoD

Was this in an aircraft?
 

McDonell Douglas's finest.

Hempy

The organisers have no power of authority for persons outside the wire. Unless there is a by-law or land owner complaining of trespass, the police have no power either. Common sense and the law are not always in sync.

What is known in the spotter fraternity as a 'naughty field' often places the public in areas forbidden by CAA and MAA regulations yet removal of offenders is not legally viable.

Yeovilton have been proactive in introducing temporary by laws closing bridleways and footpaths, but frankly all this will do is put the stn in good light in a Coroners Court inquiry. The first such court could see the end of air shows in the UK.

..... and had that F16 undershot and taken out even one spectator, the prophesy of doom would be this mornings headlines.

Different angle on this one
 

Looks like the pilot landed on or very close to the numbers (37 sec in)

Fair point Tashengurt, in my defence back in the 80’s I spent just about all my tour on the SSA site and anything relating to traffic law that I learnt back then I have long forgotten! In those days anyone stopping anywhere along the A15 was regarded with suspicion, including aircraft spotters, and generally from inside the fence we were instructed just to tell them to move on. Of course it was all double yellow lines along the road and the parking area at the WAVE didn't exist.
The reference to a train crossing was because I assumed that the principles, if not the actual law, may be the same. Looking at the Highway Code does not seem to provide the answers and this link simply references vehicles.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ng-traffic.pdf

I think it may be that a pedestrian going past the red flashing lights at a railway crossing commits a trespassing offence under the Railway by laws but it’s not clear if the same applies to a road. We clearly need an up to date proper policeman’s view here not some retired snowdrop!

Chap in the orange t shirt on the ladder gets a bit of a fright.

I suppose the solution would be to re-route the A15 in the same manner that the A38 was moved at Bristol.

They also did that a few miles further up the A15 at Scampton, but that was quite a long time back I think, anyone know a date?