Guys - not following this thread properly.

Can someone say when the VGS Grobs will be back in the air - thinking of the Little Rissington flight?

The official line is flying will resume September / October, but before any VGS gets going the CGS at Syerston will have to regain their currency. Therefore the cynics at the VGS reckon flying will restart next year possibly never.

JJ

Thanks for that. It does beg 2 questions:

1. If being refered to in flight, then why not put this SOP into the Flight Reference. Cards?

2. I seem to be back to square one. If being flown in a similar manner, on the same fuel and from the same airfield, why are the Vigis having more rough running incidents than the G109Bs when the only difference is the configuration of the fuel system? (that I'm aware of)

:confused:

LJ

LJ

1 - I would argue because FRCs are for checks, handling guidance is all in the aircrew manual. In my new job, my club 152 check list doesn't tell me when to apply carb heat for the descent for example, it's procedure that is taught.

2 - are they? Is the engine arising rate per hour any different Viggies clock up loads of hours

I was told by OC 2FTS - in May, admittedly - that Little Rissington would be among a handful of 'super' VGS to be the first to be back to full capacity once 2FTS chief instructors were. I'm afraid I can't remember the others (I remembered LR as it's relatively local but sadly not the most local.)

Don't get too hung up on carb icing incidents on the Vigi. Yes they still occur but no more (possibly less) often than in the GA world and as a rule they are handled more safely than the GA incidents.
The majority of the Vigi's engine troubles were not carb icing, rather they were ignition related with the mag doing odd things and the plugs growing wiskers, both issues now many years in the past.
BTW the later problem was solved by the Syerston techies trying different oils until the solution was reached by using oil with a picture of a Tractor on the label :eek:

Please could someone summarize the current and predicted flying opportunities for Air Cadets, i.e. whats serviceable and whats not.

My lad is soon to start, but won't be enrolled, (and therefore can't fly) until December(ish).

The squadron are still sticking to the party line of "loads and loads of flying", but I wonder what the reality will be?

Depends where the Sqn is, some units are lucky in being close to the AEFs and get plenty of oppertunities unlike us in NI when we get one trip a year to Woodvale and if the weather is bad it ends up as a shopping trip to Liverpool and that is it until the following year. Gliding, last I got from the Wing Gliding Officer was January so he may just be in luck.

AEF is moving along nicely; VGS is a dead loss and will be until early 2015 (at the earliest).

Some sqns are looking outside the box, looking at civilian opportunities for both. And occassionally sqns do get the opportunities of RAF multi-engine flights.

And of course there remains the opportunity to fly in Service aircraft.

This week a friendly RAF Merlin flew nearly 300 cadets at a nearby "green" camp. :ok:

Looking at around Oct 15 for a return to ops normal. Jan/Feb is when the VGS staff hope to start getting back into the swing of things. Plenty of SCT and standardisation to be done before then.

Cat

Define "ops normal"...

As I understand it, this is a small cadre of aircraft ready for Oct 14 at RAF Syerston to get a 'chosen few' current. Then the 'chosen few' will set up 5 regional airfields to train some more - this is probably going to take the rest of this year.

Then, once all the staff have had a bit of SCT, then each VGS will be stood up in turn by 2FTS staff. Now seeing that there are 2-dozen odd VGS then I don't share your confidence for Jan/Feb 15 for your "ops normal" even at this point. I would have thought that would be nearer Easter or maybe even later for the last on the list?

Not trying to be negative, but there's forward leaning and then there is a point where you fall over! :ok:

B Word

I'm afraid I may not have been as clear as I'd hoped. I didn't say Ops normal Jan/Feb. Jan/Feb is when most of us think we are going to be ready to start thinking about getting instructors and pilots back into the air and, if we get the same dog-toffee winter we had this year, we won't be getting much done even then.

I actually said Oct 15. Even OC 2FTS's own assessment puts us into the latter half of 2015 before all 25 Sqns are carrying out the full range of activities (GIC/GS/AGT etc.) again. I'm just adding a couple of months on as a bit of a fudge factor, bearing in mind that most of the dates we've been given seemed to have slipped to the right over the past few months, so I don't think its a completely unreasonable assumption, I hope you'll agree.

Bear in mind that they've only just finished inspecting the 5 Vigilant and 5 Viking airframes to finish establishing the scale of the problems involved in returning the fleets to an airworthy state. So Syerston will just now be getting some sort of picture of how long it will take to get things back in order. Bear in mind, as they troll through the fleet, there's a fairly good chance that other unforeseen problems will spring up, and let's not forget the giant engineering backlogs at Syerston that existed even before all this blew up. (Even before this saga, there was a giant queue to get airframes into the rather temperamental GRP bay, which appears to be to engineering what Abu Hamza is to proctology.)

From the latest update I've seen (which, as ever, was annoyingly devoid of real detail, given that at some point OC 2FTS is presumably going to ask us unpaid volunteers to get back in these things and train people's kids) they're still optimistic that they can get flying underway at Syerston by October, but the big problem is bringing squadrons back up to speed. Even if the engineering goes to plan, the unofficial numbers I've heard thrown about crewrooms involves 1hr of SCT for every month off to regain proficiency- and we only usually operate two days a week. Then you have to throw in all the standardisation checks, category renewals and, in all probability, training everyone on a completely new set of engineering processes, procedures and standards. It's going to take a while. I just hope not too many more people are going to vote with their feet.

There seems to be a tranche of money which has been made available for Air Cadets to fly with RAFGSA clubs (maybe BGA clubs too?). The Kestrel Gliding Club at Odiham has certainly flow a fair number of cadets over the summer, which has resulted in up to a 50% increase in the number of launches per day.

A parent/guardian signature is required on the club's paperwork for under 18 year olds, so cadets will be disappointed if they just turn up on the day without making contact in advance.

Cat, my apologies, I was confused by Oct 15! D'oh! :ugh:

Now new medical paperwork for AEF and gliding has appeared, admin nightmare :ugh:

Hi all, haven't been on here as busy working the summer weathers been great for us poor pay civvy FIs! How are the glider boys and girls getting on now? Hopefully ok back to speed it's such a shame they lost a good summer!

Jimmy

Bad news, I'm afraid. Cadets unlikely to start flying for some time yet. I understand, on the grapevine, that the planned introduction of a few examples to kick-start a return to flight program has been delayed. I don't know the full story, or have an idea of what the delay is, though. :confused:

Got to feel sad for the VGS staff. :(

The good news for some Cadets is that Tutor AEFs have made up partially for the VGS shortfall following their Grobs being off-line for a while last year and that some lucky Cadets have been given gliding scholarships with gliding clubs.

LJ :ok:

Best case scenario still doesn't have full operation inc gliding scholarships until summer 2015.

I'm the Chairman of one of the oldest civilian gliding clubs on an active RAF airfield (not far from Oxfordshire's most secret airfield) and we've come to an arrangement with one of the local ATC squadrons where we are offering some of their cadets the chance to fly with us. Hopefully other civvie gliding clubs will follow suit.

I think you mean you've come to a private arrangement with the parents of some of the ATC cadets... Sqns are specifically forbidden from organising anything.

Indeed so. As a fomer Wing Staff Officer and WGLO, from memory (and I assume it hasn't changed much since I left last year), there are very clear parameters that have to be met for Opportunity Flights (as they were called then), particularly around the experience of the aircraft commander (minimum 500 hrs P1 seems to spring to mind), if it were to be classed as a legitimate ATC activity and hence covered by insurance. One of my Squadrons tried to set up an arrangement with a local flying organisation and I had to meet and give them chapter and verse on what the minimum standards and processes to follow were from the appropriate guidance and at that point, nothing moved on. Whether it ever did, I don't know as I left the ACO not long afterwards, but its a route that has to be trod very carefully and could be a real bear pit if, God forbid anything went wrong. .

Crying shame to see the Air Cadet gliding movement grounded but, although no-one has suggested it was 'dangerous', if it comes back safer after its enforced break, who can argue?

I look forward to seeing them airborne again just as soon as can possibly be managed

Why on earth 500hrs P1 when some of the VGS instructors have a panic attack if you ask them to fly outside the ATZ! (Ok, that's slightly tongue in cheek, but you don't need anywhere near 500hrs P1 to fly a Cadet in a Vigilant or Viking). :eek:

From what I understand, they are offering scholarships to a select few Cadets chosen by 2FTS to fly with RAFGSA gliding clubs. Sounds like a good scheme for those on or around their 17th birthday that might miss out over the 12 month 'pause'.

LJ

Why on earth 500hrs P1 when some of the VGS instructors have a panic attack if you ask them to fly outside the ATZ! (Ok, that's slightly tongue in cheek, but you don't need anywhere near 500hrs P1 to fly a Cadet in a Vigilant or Viking).


Now, now. There are a lot of airline pilots in the VGS world, not to mention several senior retired RAF aircrew. We rather like going outside the ATZ on occasion when it's CAVOK. You must be confusing us with the AEF guys. :rolleyes:

'Scared to fly outside the ATZ'?

Hell, we used to do that routinely in the Barge (T21)!

Has there any news if anything, Vigilant/Viking, has taken to the air yet? Or is the grounding still ongoing?

The 'pause' is still on pause...:hmm:

Leon et al,
The 500 hour requirement was still in ATC rules and regs late last year, when I checked it. There are also other criteria which I don't recall at the moment.

There is also a get-out type clause which mentioned that those criteria might be waived, subject to the pilot in question being interviewed by someone high up the chain of command.Please excuse me if I've paraphrased the rules more than a bit.

As an ATC CI, and holding PPL with 300 or so hours, I did look at offering rides to cadets to get some of them airborne whilst this hiatus is still going on, hence my checking the rules. As I didn't have the 500+, that strangled the idea at birth.

As an alternative, surely there are several flying schools around the country that could fly cadets, if the paperwork system could be sorted out?

According to recent EASA rules, flying training organisations have to be registered and vetted by the CAA, to allow them to train people to PPL standard. Were the Air Cadet authorities to start with these groups, surely something could be done?

It breaks my heart to talk to the kids every week and not be able to get them airborne, which is the reason why so many join the ACO. It's what attracted me to it over 50 years ago.

rumour is its for the long term. They are hoping to possibly get 1 Vigilant airborne this month.
They have not started looking at the Vikings yet.

Good grief, what a mess ! With my civvie gliding club head on I fielded a membership enquiry this evening from a young air cadet desperate to fly who couldn't understand why the ATC no longer offer it. I'm reminded of a wonderful episode of Yes Mininster featuring a hospital bustling with administrative activity but no patients - Sir Humphrey naturally saw nothing wrong with this arrangement !

The age for solo in the UK is now 14 in gliders, not sure if there is an age limit added on by the ATC?

I have heard from usually good sources that Sept 15 is the earliest you may see ATC gliders and motor-gliders back in the air. We are continuing to do all that we can to satisfy the Cadet's desire to fly under our own private arrangements with the Cadets and their families.

Unfortunately whatever return to flying programme is put in place can not estimate the number of staff that may wish to recommit to sacrificing their weekends after such a long break. Their families and spouses have got used to having their grounded glider pilots around and this might cause some reluctance to recommit.

When we tried to form a microlight AEF at RAF Halton, supported by our enthusiastic Wg Ad O, (a retired rock Wg Cdr) we got a special 'blood chit' approved by HQAC which had to be signed by a parent to acknowledge the cadets were not on ATC duty whilst they were being flown. This got us round the 'min 500hrs P1' rule and we successfully flew many cadets from local squadrons; I personally did many 'first flights' for cadets.
Subsequently in 1996/7, the same flying club (called the Ridge Runners') was approved by HQAC and CFS to carry out Microlight Flying Scholarships with qualified civilian instructors who had been checked out by CFS. I think about 16 cadets got a 'Restricted' PPL(M).

Then the money ran out......

I hear that the Tutor units are strating to move from Wyton to Wittering in the spring. Does anyone know if (a) this is true and (b) what the schedule might be, please?

One assumes that this will also cause some sort of delay in the pipeline as well, although I'd be happy if anyone in the know could correct this.

Thanks
B:O

Unfortunately the provision for civilian flights to be approved has in effect been withdrawn - certainly CCF TEST officers have been told not to approve any requests. And the problem with civilian gliding is that the RAF feels that they need to inspect each and every provider, rather than just taking the BGA's word for it that the club is safe.

Not strictly accurate is it? Of the three types of flying available to air cadets (ie dedicated powered flying, gliding and opportunity flights in Service aircraft), one of the above is temporarily suspended (albeit for a lengthy period). Yes the AEFs aren't all running at full capacity yet following the Tutor groundings, but I understand that the picture on this front is generally improving; and while there aren't as many opportunities to fly in Service aircraft as there used to be, you could have said that every successive year since the 1940s!

It could actually be a lot worse. Maybe it's going to get worse...but right now plenty of cadets are getting airborne one way or another. For example, last summer every Sqn in West Mercian Wing ATC had at least one cadet flown in a Squirrel during the Wing Training Weekend, and about the same time all 40-odd cadets taking part in a No 2 Welsh Wing exercise at Nesscliffe were flown into the exercise area in Griffins. A drop in the ocean? Maybe, but better than nothing at all.

Wyton to Wittering
 

Bobward,

The best guess is that Tutor flying will transfer from Wyton to Wittering sometime next month. However, there may be a delay in being able to fly cadets as the cadet rooms are unlikely to be ready for use.

BB

Its been reported that the first 'Airworthy' Vigilant has flown since the 'Pause' was called.
Just how long it'll take to get the rest flying again and all the VGS staff (what's left of them) current again is anyone's guess.