"Air test them at Cambridge and then aerotow to Syerston."
Always happy to help out 7700 - am current on either end of the rope and on the insurance for four different tugs. Am I correct in assuming that the two completed Vikings haven't moved yet then?

Lets start a petition


D... U..... for OC 2FTS, as Hon Gp Capt like herself..........hat, coat

Ha ha ha - its a generous offer Wander but I couldn't handle the bulldust (or the inertia!) I quite like getting things done, then getting on with the next thing that needs doing. Ten years of producing a monthly magazine will do that to you!

T'was in jest, and for just those reasons - something needs a stick of dynamite inserting - I am dismayed for the last 18 months but more so for the future, not least because I know what I got out of the Air Cadets. Tried to put a bit back too, as a VR(T) officer for a while, an ACLO (twice) and as an OC Admin Wg

I know Wander - and I'm as upset about the recent past and as worried about the immediate future as you. The ATC was great for me too, and I think my two young sons would probably join - but only if they can fly.

Dave,
It was 'almost' a tongue in cheek suggestion but in all seriousness, if the will and need to have them back at Syerston was there they could've been aerotowed - I know you have the means at your disposal, there is/was a Robin at Syerston used by CGS for aerotowing.

And think of the PR - 'RAF undertakes longest glider tow since June 44'.

If it had been a civvy club and they needed a glider back (because two seaters earn money for clubs) it would've been aerotowed if necessary and of course last week presented a great weather window to do it.


7700

Delivering the task is not the issue
 

I think you (we) are all missing the point, DU. Not flying cadets is a good thing in the modern safety environment. 'As Low As Possible' sets an even higher standard than 'As Low As Reasonably Practicable', since No fly = No risk. As for a civi flying a military aircraft, heaven forbid! It was bad enough letting RAF-pilot-wanabee Walter Mitties fly them. Cdt AC and OC 2 FTS have achieved a 100% safety record.

Exactly 7700 - if they wanted them back they could have aerotowed them (in fact, last week any decent soaring pilot would've had a fair chance at soaring them back, I flew on several days between Saltby and Wittering and it was really good at times, with plenty of lift about). I think ACW VGL has hit the nail on the thumb - someone has decided that ATC sailplanes will have a 100% safety record, and we all know that can only be achieved by not flying ATC sailplanes.

I remember doing a number of retrieves from our VGS to CGS and back to ensure we had a decent servicable fleet, sometimes 2 in a day. I daren't count the amount of time I spent on the A1 with a trailer wagging happily behind me.

Reason I put this is there was always the will to do something, to help the old CGMF keep the fleet flying during peak season. This will appears to have all but gone, however, I would love to be proved wrong.

OB

Unfortunately, the pendulum of risk v task has not found its point of equilibrium yet, particularly following the loss of cadets in the two Tutor mid-airs. In an operationally busy and cash strapped service I can understand the low priority of the ACW fleet. I am frustrated for the youngsters who are missing out but know that the staff of at least one VGS are eager to rebuild, refresh and move on, once the opportunity presents itself.

Where has the "Air" in Air Cadets gone?
 

There appears to be no will to do anything associated with risk in the ACO at present.

I fear that we may have gone from when we were making things happen (1970 - 2000), through watching things happen (2000 - 2010) to wondering what's happened (2010 - 2015) in the ACO.

There is another thread on "Gliding Paused" running on Air Cadet Central and it seems that any attempt by the squadrons to get Air Cadets off the ground has been thwarted at every turn.

The silence from HQAC and No 2 FTS has been deafening!!

Any chance of getting a sympathetic MP to ask a PQ?

Apparently boss dudes going to cranwell next weekend and then big briefings all round place after that. Big announcement about closing a load of the schools for good apparently. Really sad, dunno what's going to be left, probably a few schools and Syston.

That is also the rumour I'm hearing. I'm also hearing that some new aircraft might be bought. Just like SDSR, though, lots of rumours as all the options are staffed...good ones and bad ones!

We'll have to see what the next 4 weeks brings.

LJ

Personally, if the axe has to fall I would like to see the AEFs go. As a young CGB I spent endless weekends chasing winch launched gliders around a soggy, cold RAF Catterick. Cadets had plenty of opportunity to fly whilst also engaging in proper, aviation related, team building activity. Right now, the organisation is more aligned to the Army Cadets/Scouts than aviation. Indeed, it is depressing to get a message from WHQ asking if you have any aviation minded cadets who may want to attend an undersubscribed aviation training day; there's only so many times you can enthusiastically marshall a landrover.

Perhaps the BGA is the solution? They quite happily and safely service Air League scholarships and I'm sure they would be willing to embrace the ACO as a customer/partner.

It's easy to say the BGA might be the solution, but I suspect there is a lot of devil in the details of that one in many areas. Our local ATC approached my club and was wanting only full cat instructors to fly cadets...

The cadets have virtually no opportunity to fly and are leaving in droves. My son has had one 20 min slot in a Tudor in his 2 years with the cadets.

I just can't understand why the organisation isn't making up for it, and therefore re-engaging the cadets, by offering more sqn visits and jollies.

Oh come on chaps, this is the Royal Air Force! They cannot close some of the gliding schools as they keep telling us that the Vikings and Vigilants will be back soon, they have 26 new Skylaunch winches just waiting to be started up. All of those Squadron Leaders must have squadrons to run, or what else would they do at weekends?

I can imagine Skylaunch just taking back those unused winches and giving the MOD their money back, not! What would Skylaunch do with 26 diesel engined winches when all the clubs want is gas powered kit?

No, this is just a rumour chaps, do not worry, all is well, Air Cadet gliding will start soon, I promise you!

I can remember when rumours started about military camps closing around the UK. These rumours were scotched and the camps involved started to spruce themselves up and everything was painted. Then they closed them down!!

Years ago I went on a business course and one of the pieces of course work was a project to look at the demise of the British motorcycle industry. It all started with the import of cheap 50cc Honda motor cycles with electric start and weather protection. The British motorcycle industry just ignored this and watched it happen!! Remember, big companies like BSA, Ariel, Norton, Royal Enfield, Norton, Vincent, Velocette and Triumph. At the end of the day they put it down to bad management!!

I can imagine the business schools thinking about "Air Cadet Gliding and what became of it!" in years to come as a future project.

No, closing Air Cadet gliding schools is only a nasty rumour!

Cadet deaths when flying have led to greater reluctance to overlook the risks associated with flying. Cadet deaths during AT have led to greater reluctance to overlook the risks associated with AT. Hardly surprising, however unfortunate the impact on the amount of flying/AT being done!

Do you have any figures to back this up?

Do you mean ATC sqns going on visits, or ATC visits to RAF sqns? And what kind of jollies?

Yes. My sons squardon has gone from 30 to 14 in two years.
ATC visits to RAF sqns, and, a jolly, as in a ride in anything that the RAF has going.

Latest from the Commandant Air Cadets FB page;
I had a catch up call with the AOC and he is focussed on mtgs associated with the glider recovery programme, which is at a critical stage. As soon as we know what option has been agreed, we will ensure that information is cascaded to everyone who needs to know but, due to commercial and contractual sensitivities, I regret I cannot tell you what option are under consideration. Rest assured, the boss and his senior colleagues are doing all they can.

Okay, gliding may not be happening across the ACO, AEF is happening in all locations, except those Wings/Sqns affiliated to 5 AEF. But what about getting in ouch with multi-engine units of RAF or, dare I say, talk to AAC; we've had cadets up in helicopters several times this year.

And as for cadets not getting the opportunities of activities, that is usually down to OC Sqns, not to the ACO as a whole. I have seen it many times where OCs don't spread opportunities around for various reasons.

Comments by Commandant AC suggest that far from rectification being near completion, decisions have yet to be made on "where, when and by whom!"

Wander00
 

I think you will find that most of the where, who & when decisions have been made and as it is a single source contract the greater financial oversight has to be gone over before the project can go ahead at full steam.

The ball will soon be firmly in the court of the type certificate holders and RAF supply system to provide appropriate support as the contractors and their sub contractors are tooled up with all the technical issues under control and just awaiting the green light to proceed as quickly as they can.

One of my mates on FB said that apparently Viggies all going to be binned as need new engines and wings all cracked or something? Sounds like my old winch mates willbe ok but no motorglidders?

ALL Vigilant's need new engines and have wing cracks?! Hmmm........unlikely I'd say!

Can't believe that about the Vigilants for a minute.

I could believe it as a strategy for getting a new replacement provided. Such as the Ximango for instance :}

Arc

New engines! I'd heard that rumour, but from memory, Grob initially offered a different power plant and 3 bladed C/S prop. (Tutor prop replacement anyone?)
What do they think they'll fit now???? A diesel engine like the winches? :eek:

There was a Grob 109B modified with a Rotax engine at AeroFriedrichshafen earlier this year. It was the object of some interest by RAF visitors.

I saw a G109 fitted with a 912 when I flew the G120TP and G520T out of Grob's base at Tussenhausen-Mattsies a few months back.

Does that mean that Grob would restart production for the Airframe and supply new airframe and engine combinations ?

I'm sure there would be a civilian market for this as well as a MoD Production run..............

Interesting thought. I wonder what the performance is like. There is the added complexity of reduction gearboxes and liquid cooling to consider. Nothing major really for RAF type use & servicing.................

Grob could take back the old Vigilants in exchange and re-engine them to defray the costs.

Hmmm

Arc

My understanding is that the new engine project was slated to be procured from the 2015/16 budget. They decided to keep the back-to-flying programme and the re-engine programmes separate (you know, because it is far more efficient to have a whole fleet run through major maintenance twice, and re-train all the crews twice). As a result, the engine programme budget has been lost, and will have to be re-allocated as and when. Probably a good thing. Besides, they aircraft obviously haven't flown the hours they were projected to over the last 18 months, so in theory the moment they're flying in earnest again, the stopwatch will be restarted.

IFAIA, the engine is expected to be a Rotax 912 variant - hopefully the certified 100hp version and a modern efficient propeller. (Would be lovely to have a 914 and get a decent climb rate, but that's probably too much engine management left in the hands of nervous 16 year olds unless they come up with a single leaver option).

You'd think a bit of fuel, oil and water would be 'nothing major really', but the way the RAF/MAA thinks, daily servicing appears to be a minefield for unqualified persons - ie mere pilots.

I know what you mean Dusty, and in the real world it's mostly only fuel. We use a EuroFox as the primary tug at one of the clubs I fly from, fitted with a 912iS - and some days it works pretty hard.
AFAIK although we check regularly the coolant has NEVER needed topping up. It does take a teacup of oil every couple of weeks.

Well, as already discussed, the VGS OCs have been summoned to Syerston the weekend after next. They're to be briefed by AOC 22Gp personally. 1hr meeting, nothing else scheduled, for chaps that are travelling from all corners of the country. (6hr drive from Preddannack, 8hrs from Kinloss.)

Comdt 2 FTS then to host a series of 5 "town hall meetings" for all VGS staff.

I don't know anyone who has a warm and fuzzy feeling, but if I'm honest, after 18 months of getting the mushroom treatment from Pippa and his superiors, getting binned may actually come as a relief to a bunch of guys and girls who are tired of being f:mad:ed around and who are ready to get on with their lives.

CF

Yes, that's what I heard as well. Saturday 7 Nov 15 is the briefing day for 'the rest'. I feel for the OC's if they have to keep schtum from the rest of their team for a week or so.

I hope that sense prevails and that the VGS goes on and returns to its roots. The motorglider use for me always seemed a bit between the two efforts (AEF and conventional gliding). I am hearing on the jungle drums that some 'core sites' will be favoured over others, but I hope that the majority of the sites are preserved - local sites are good, and I think the sole use of Dundee for Flying Scholarships demonstrates the error of that particular course of action over having flying opportunities for Cadets in th local area.

LJ

Agreed. If the opportunity is still there, back to basics.

I couldn't agree more LJ. The MGs are OK, but pure gliding is better value.
I’ve always felt that air sports can be very valuable in promoting the social, intellectual and physical development of teenagers, and with gliding in particular we have an activity which offers both physical and mental exercise, instils pride in solo achievement, and yet is only made possible with teamwork. Soaring flight requires the practical application of lessons learned in maths, physics and geography, while even relatively mundane airfield tasks such as keeping the log can teach young people another very important life skill - learning to take responsibility.
To become a good pilot requires discipline and self-discipline, while a good day’s gliding combines all the elements of a great day out - fun, excitement, exercise and adventure in the fresh air. Just what you want for a teenager. How, or why, have the ATC lost sight of this?

LJ,

I grew up with the Viking and switched onto the Viligant. As a training tool, the Viking is far more useful as the cadets are kept busy all day helping to launch and recover aircraft.

From a purely selfish point of view, as a borderline old git, there's a lot to be said for not spending your winter weekends ankle-deep in mud and being able to turn on the cabin heat. :E

The problem with winch-launching is that the hierarchy is very wary of conjoint ops with powered aircraft, so finding suitable sites is a big problem.

I wonder why "the hierarchy is very wary of conjoint ops with powered aircraft"?
Many civi gliding clubs cheerfully run winch, aerotow and MG operations side-by-side all day long, and also accept visiting powered aeroplanes, helicopters and microlights (with PPR and a decent brief).
After all, its not rocket surgery is it?

I wholeheartedly agree with those who think that gliders should not have engines, but on some sites the motor glider is the only option to get cadets into the sky.

I the motor glider fleet is going to have change the engine as the one they have is now unsupported, the Rotax 912 re-engine is the only game in town and the best place to go but remember that this will need to be just part of the upgrade, 8.33 comms and FLARM will also need to be part of the package.

As for talk of cracks in the wings........ I think this is just rubbish spouted by the poorly informed.

Part Task Trainers
 

So why would OIC Air Cadets be saying all VGS getting P T Trainers in the summer issue of Air Cadet !

It seems that an organisation that has had two brand new fleets of relatively simple machines that have been kept under secure cover, have not been able to
maintain a system that was adequate to satisfy their own requirements.

Get the chisels out chaps and build some new Mk 111's and a winch that just required a staff cadet and some fuel. The ATC can then get back to what they were good at; getting Cadets airborne, giving them 3 solo's, and remembering the motto VENTURE ADVENTURE. It would be acceptable to 'upgrade' from wellies. PP