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LONG RANGE SAR
So, God forbid, should an airliner come down at 30W, which asset will we be using to conduct the long hours of search and possible rescue? Sadly, these things do happen... :rolleyes:
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Ships. Next.
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The Navy?
There's a couple of Nimrods in fast taxying condition (I know, I know) C-130? Options are fairly limited it would seem. |
t7,
Get your MP to ask the question on your behalf! Then you'll get the 'official' answer. |
Great question. Sadly we have nothing. Our wonderful government's mitigation is to rely on the French...
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Wilst working at Pitreavie in the 80's the 'plan' was to despatch a couple of C130's with large rafts and drop them in the vicinity, send the Navy and ask the USAF to help with C130 and CH53., not much but it was the best at the time.
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That's ancient history and doesn't exist anymore. We have no assets to take on this task. The end.
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Here's a bite...
Right Alfred the Great...you have got my blood up.
A ship travels at 12-20kts, so unless it's in the right place already, everyone who survived the crash at 30W will probably die. It takes too long to get to the scene and conducts a slow search. A Long Range MPA travels at 300+kts, so some people who survived the crash at 30W might survive because timely and accurate location is more likely, Apparatus Sea Rescue can be thrown at the survivors, some of whom might just be able to climb aboard. The UK government took a conscious decision to do away with that capability. Next. |
Exactly!!!!!!
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In terms of military platforms, the UK has a C-130J that is supposedly available for SAR tasking, although it is not a dedicated SAR asset.
What equipment the aircraft carries, and how well trained the crews are, I could not answer. Perhaps a C-130J man can? However, do remember that the C-130J fleet have provided long range maritime SAR around the Falkland Islands for many years, and have had some success doing so! |
t7,Get your MP to ask the question on your behalf! Then you'll get the 'official' answer. |
Ok Biggus. Please enlighten us as to what sort of standby that's on right now??!!
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Therefore, the Azores Air Detachment and the Portuguese Air Force's 502nd and 751st Squadrons operate in the archipelago, where they're uniquely positioned to respond to these underway Atlantic emergencies. The Portuguese Air Force search and rescue arsenal consists of two EH-101 Merlin helicopters and one Casa C-295M, which remain on 24-hour alert at the base. SAR crews in the Merlin typically consist of a pilot, co-pilot, systems operator, rescue swimmer and nurse. Other Portuguese search and rescue assets include the P-3 Orion and C-130 Hercules. Since the beginning of 2012, Portuguese aircraft operating from Lajes Field have combined for 232 search and rescue missions, coming to the aid of 252 people. When executing search and rescue missions, these aircraft count on American fuel pumped by the 65th Logistics Readiness Squadron Fuels Management Flight. "Within the past year alone, the Fuels Management Flight supported Portuguese SAR missions with a grand total of 220,400 gallons of fuel, servicing the C-295 and EH-101 aircraft," said Staff Sgt. Lucas Thompson, 65th LRS Fuels Service Center NCOIC. The 65th LRS receives as many as four calls a day to assist the Portuguese SAR team. When the SAR unit contacts the 65th LRS' control center, a fuels operator arrives on scene within minutes to provide up to 1,000 gallons of fuel. Speed is key, said Master Sgt. Frank Berrones, 65th LRS Fuels Management Flight superintendent. Although the Air Force once used a 30-minute standard for which operators must respond to aircraft fueling requests, no true standard exists, said Berrones. |
FG - I'd wager there are more ships out there than you think. There would likely be a ship on station within 12 - 18 hours.
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betty,
You first - tell us all what standby the duty SAR Nimrod MR2 was on in the final years of the fleet. And why the ??!! when all I did was inject some facts into a thread running solely on conjecture. |
Biggus. I'm not interested in raking up the facts of the past. The MR2 history has been aptly covered on various other threads, I'm sure you'll agree.
You claim to put "facts" on this thread re C-130 SAR commitment. We DON'T have one. Fact. |
betty,
At the end of it's life the MR2 fleet had an aircraft on 2hrs notice to fly, for either SAR or other possible scenarios I won't discuss here. The standby crew had long stopped staying overnight in respective messes, and were at home on pagers. TODAY the UK has a C-130J on a similar standby 24/7 for a variety of tasks, once again I won't go into them on this forum, but one of them is SAR provision. I'm sorry if this FACT doesn't fit with your personal agenda, but it is nevertheless a FACT. I have already stated my reservations about the capability of this asset to conduct SAR, but it is available to be tasked, and denying it won't alter that FACT! |
I have no agenda. And again, I resent your tone. And your tone towards me previously in other threads. I am simply trying to point out that we are in a poor state long range SAR wise. As per the question at the start of the thread.
If you wish to remain in cloud cuckoo land believing we have a Herc on 24 hour standby, able to conduct LR SAR, you're perfectly at will to believe that. I'd have at least thought with your previous military service, you'd have an amount of scepticism about this claim. |
Quick question if I may.
How many airliners have crashed in the mid-atlantic in the last couple of years? How many passengers survived these crashes? |
I think some one needs to have a sleep.
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The UK has a variety of aircraft on 24hr standby, such as AD fighters, a tanker, a Chinook, to name but a few.
With your "previous military experience", why do you find it so hard to believe that we have a C-130J on 24 hr standby, albeit as I said with a reaction time in terms of a couple of hours? In the days of the C-130K fleet we used to have 3 aircraft on 24/7 standby for a variety of roles. As I have repeatedly stated, just one possible, and not the primary, use of the standby C-130J is SAR provision. It is there availbale for use. Perhaps you'd like to ring the ARCC at Kinloss and tell them to take it off their tote page, and delete their procedures for calling it out? |
Biggus,
it is nevertheless a FACT.... Not any more my old china. HQ Air have declared that we do not do long-range airborne SAR full stop. For a variety of reasons that I won't go into but the capability no longer exists. Options are to ask allies for help (a mitigation factor for removal of the MRA4) if you need an airborne requirement or alternatively, adopt the 'Titanic' approach and ask the nearest ship you can find from AIS to go and investigate. |
PA,
That's news to me. When did that change? Recently? Who provides coverage in the Falklands then? |
It would appear it's time for me to admit that my information is out of date, apologies to all.....
.....maybe I should make that phone call to the ARCC! |
ASRA C130J
I can't believe there are no current C130J folks contributing to this forum. I packed in 2 years ago. Will the black Omega be around if I tell you that one of the last things I was involved on the fringes of was ASRA for the J.
The prime aim was for the Falklands when the K retired. The aircraft also had ship spot AIS fitted. (the HEDIT integrated it) The Boscombe Down (Q2) trials officer was a rather short ex Army type with years of AD experience (BL). 57R completed all the airdrop trials including smoke floats and liferaft containers. The Canadian exchange officer on the Herc PT was the Project Officer. We had a few issues with respect to DAs / Support Authority for the kit. (It had fallen through the cracks when the S&AD PT disintegrated). All of the wooden racks that JATE had designed (that were never ever supported by anyone) were not used on the J. Thank god for the simple P strap. I would be most surprised if it never got Released to Service. If it did not then someone should get their @rse kicked for wasting money on trials without a roadmap to service. Here is another thought- If an aircraft ditched mid Atlantic could the SPAG not offer assistance. They are held at VHR with all the kit in the sheds in front of the OM @ Brize. Why is this such a secret this day and age. |
Sending you 10p, Biggus
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Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is what happens when an airplane crashes mid-atlantic; no one survives. |
JATE had a new version of ASRA on which trials were conducted in 1988 from a Herc CMk 1K. It used 3 MS10 tied together rather than the single dinghy and two supply containers. The trials went well although on the two occasions live rafts were used two out of the three inflated inverted (I never moaned about righting a dinghy during drills after that).
Whilst the system worked it never got CA release as the powers that be got all excited about the flares and smoke floats being stowed next to the fuel tanks in the fuselage. Ultimately CA Release wasn't given due the fact that the CMk1K didn't have one.:ugh: |
HQ Air have declared that we do not do long-range airborne SAR full stop. |
Betty,
Within the constraints of an open forum, actually, Biggus is correct. And I can personally vouch for the quality of the training! As to the platform, it might not be optimised for the role but in slightly modified form it serves for the USCG.... |
Thanks. That's useful. I never said anything about the quality of the training or the air vehicle. My comments were based on the availability of the asset. Read what Party Animal wrote.
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Maybe it doesn't happen very often these days and we don't have that many aircraft anyway, but SAR was not only for civil airlines but military aircraft.
I am sure it was a great comfort to the Lightning Joe over the Norwegian Sea and later the F4s to know that they could expect a SAR from UK or Norway within 2 hours. Now a Tiffy pilot could be quite lonely before a P3 gets there from Iceland (?), Norway, or Lakenheath(?). |
It's a long way from Andøya/ENAN for the RNoAF P-3C and P-3Ns. Approx 1000+ nm They are on alert, not sure how long lead time.
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Personally, I never gave flying fig about there being an MPA on my fast jet trails. I was more concerned to have a working beacon, dinghy and being somewhere near the shipping lanes. There was always enough gas for the rest of the fomation to get a good fix on me and then divert into Halifax or Keflavik and so the 'Search' was always unlikely.
Unless it's a seaplane, having an MPA overhead eating dairy cream sponge whilst I freeze my knackers off doesn't cut the 'rescue' portion. Furthermore, my hands would not be able to cope with ASRA after about 30 minutes and so an MPA turning up a few hours later would probably either find me bobbing about in a little dinghy waiting for a ship or bobbing face down making a good impression of an iceberg. Now for 'search' in this airliner tragedy, then I get it and believe that the flexibility/speed/reach of an airborne asset over a ship is far more superior. But for 'rescue' - no chance, even as little as 30 minutes after the accident in the North Atlantic. For that you need a ship or a seaplane (as long as the sea is flat enough). LJ |
All fair points but tell that to the folks we dropped ASRA gear to over the years...
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TB7
Could you tell us what shape the ASRA people were in when you dropped it? I suspect they were either in/on sinking/upturned boats/ships or sitting on some flotsam (or is it jetsam?)? I can't recall there ever being an ASRA drop to FJ aircrew during a trail? LJ |
Two RAAF AP-3C's heading right now to the Malaysian B777 crash area for SAR ops. MPA assets are essential except if your Switzerland !
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The likelihood of losing an aircraft @ 30W, with survivors in the water is extremely low, the impact of such an event would be extremely high. I hope that people who say 'we don't need or can't afford a long range SAR asset', will make themselves available to explain to grieving relatives, at Heathrow, that nothing can be done to locate their loved ones.
As seen in the tragic Malaysian Airline incident, ships aren't always the answer, to not have a long range SAR asset to cover our area of responsibility is nothing short of criminal. |
Ah Leon. If only you'd mentioned that years ago, we wouldn't have bothered.
Now you mention it, all I "gave a fig" about on SAR trails, was the exotic locations it took us to. Thanks for Bermuda, Montevideo, and Lajes was always fun. What I did give a fig about was bantering y'all when you were moaning about needing a pee and enjoying your one sandwich box, when I was on my third chicken curry. Oh, and a fig was given when the Harrier mate, trying to look cool in front of us, taxing with his canopy open, allowed his maps to get sucked out, and into the veritable Pegasus, allowing us all an extra 5 days at said location.... Thanks. |
LJ, we also practised dropping to FJ crews already in single seat life rafts. The aim being to provide bigger more comfortable accommodation with extras food and water. Having done several trails where there were no surface contacts within 200nm of track (I suspect the actual figure was much bigger but we only conducted a track search).
Given the choice of days in a MS10 or a single seat life raft in the S Atlantic I know which I would have chosen. |
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