Jayland,

Over the years there have been a number of complex SAR missions. Not all are headline grabbers, mainly because the outcomes were good.

I am glad the E3 is doing such a great job.

Somebody please tell these nations that they are wasting their money having all these long range SAR assets.

Hold on, don't we give the Indians financial aid? Perhaps we could borrow some P8Is

Sarcasm on...

Oh my God, with a couple of helos and a few boats (on primary RADAR and AIS) how would the mission crews cope with vectoring them to the target area? Especially with its various radios, datalinks and satcom?

Sarcasm off...

The E-3 has proven that it can vector Coastguard cutters and helicopters to intercept small boats carrying stuff that isn't good for your health in the past - I'm sure they'd cope! :ugh:

LJ

Now I see they claim this 777 climbed to FL450...after descending to FL230!!!!

They theory that they're parked on some dusty airfield doesn't seem good to me in that mobile phones and cameras seem to be everywhere . Not to mention the penetration of someone's airspace without being noticed .

(AEO = Airborne Eating Officer)

LJ,

The ability to vector a few contacts falls far short of the requirement.

Also AIS is not fitted to ac or fitted to vessels under 300T. There are also other things which do not have AIS which are floating around the seas and oceans.

The capabilities you quote are true to a degree but you ignore the the short falls.

Phoney

Sorry mate, utter rot. The E-3 is perfectly capable in a 'high boy' role in a maritime scenario. However, I would agree that it is pants in a 'low boy' role unlike MPAs.

Of course AIS isn't fitted to aircraft, but Mode S is for the aircraft likely to be at and around 30W (which is what we are talking about). Also, there aren't that many small craft out there either, so most of the surface ships around 30W will be AIS capable. Anyway, the E-3's primary 'ping-pong divide by 2' RADAR is more than capable of seeing the type of ships/boats you get out at 30W and the likely sea-state.

So the E-3 is almost perfect for controlling a significant SAR op in the mid Atlantic. In that it can fly up to 11hrs+ unrefuelled, it can see everything it needs to see within a ~200nm radius, it has plenty of means of communicating to everyone it needs to and also has the benefit of having at least 2-3 ex-Nimrod mates on board to tap into their expertise if they need a SME.

Oh, and I say this from someone who spent a few years on the E-3. So in summary, the E-3 is no good at low level search and can"t drop ASRA but is excellent at controlling a maritime SAR op (the clue is in the name AWACS :ok:). However, it is perfect for directing one of the standby J models with an ASRA kit to the scene of the ditching.

LJ

It couldn't see any of the helos flying in Bosnia either, from what I recall, which was about the only thing of interest flying there...

Using it as a stop-gap-find-a-job high level asset is fine but until the waves of Russian bombers come over the horizon again, it's a bit of a lost soul...

An MPA could do everything over the ocean that was required, except lift someone out of the water - that was the point.

LJ,

You pick your scenarios to fit the limited capability of the E3 in this role.

I can think of a whole range of scenarios which it can not do but this is not the place to expose them.

To control SAR you need a level of SA/ SU which you do not have. That's why you need a low boy. How far out is that support, at addition cost, available?

You can not rely on AIS, IFF, beacons and other systems from survivors or those that add to operational picture during a SAR mission. They assist but do not provide the full picture.

There are small aircraft and vessels at 30 W.

TB7

What rot. The only thing they couldn't see well was around Udbina due to the steep valleys and their direction. It was nothing to do with the E-3's RADAR performance against helicopters and more to do with the fact that electro-magnetic waves can't travel through rocks. Therefore, the Air Commander asked for a bespoke CAP in the area with fighters to look down this valley - ironically this was the CAP that Scott O'Grady was shot down on and the F3s had been covering for the previous 5 days...:eek:

Phoney

Fair enough mate. If there are survivors in the water and no sea vessels/helicopters to pick them up out at 30W then they're pretty well scr3w3d anyway.

LJ :ok:

Thinking about it more. If there was an airliner down at 30W in Oceanic Airspace then this would be a truly international effort. The UK could do the following:

1. Send Tansor and probably Southern QRA to go and start looking.
2. Send the national standby C130J with an ASRA. Generate further C130 and C17 supportin longer term by cancelling other AT taskings.
3. Send a UK E-3 as top cover and control (as part of the NATO AEW Force they could also request a GK or FR E-3).
4. Send FFs and DDs with helos to area.
5. Longer term embark helos on OCEAN or LUSTY and send them. Both SH and SAR helos could be embarked.
6. Call the Irish Air Corps for CN235 MPA support.

That is before we even ask our cousins in Canada and USA for assistance with P3, P8 and AAR capable helos.

So do we need a new LR SAR asset? I would say 'no' because we have a lot of options and a dedicated LR SAR assetis guilding the lilly.

However, do we need an MPA to look after the UK nuclear detterent. I would say 'yes' because although DDs and FFs with pinging helos are OK, the extra utility of an MPA is sorely missed.

LJ

LJ,

How quickly could we muster all these assets especially the surface units?

I think you would be surprised how few, in sea worthy condition, are available at any one time?

How long will it take to get to the area of interest?


FJ searching at 30W? How much AAR effort to get there? I suggest they would be of little use once on station. Limited radar search capability (no AIS etc) and difficult to conduct a secure visual search - I doubt if a single seat pilot could do both. How long can they remain on station? Indeed how far from land are they allowed to go? A transit home from 30W on one engine would be interesting and a risk the grown ups would probably not be willing to take.

The assets you list have very limited ability to search large areas particularly in bad weather - high sea states and the Helos have trouble getting back on board. Low cloud base, 8/8 cover in old money, requires low level visual identification of small contacts and training.

We can call on our friends but the UK has a responsibility which we, as a rich country, should honour properly.

Good to see you are trying LJ but still no banana!

Exactly! There were other folk (not on CAP) covering that department... ;)

By all means use the E3 as we still have several lying around - just don't preach it as the panacea...

TB7/PT

Given the alert states of some of these aircraft memtioned then you could have Typhoons to 30W within I estimate 2-3 hours with supporting AAR. That's not after a 2hr period of notice like the old kipper fleet - the little jets would be airborne within minutes few. During my days on FJ QRA operating many miles North of the UK is not a problem and using KEF as a div would be the way ahead. Typhoons sip gas at 40kft+ and so could be on scene waiting for AAR if the crash was closer than 30W (which is the worst case). If it's a nice day then they will probably see the devastation, debris and fuel slick. If it's a crap day then a descent to low level for a look-see is not exactly taxing - no need for pie-eaters in the left/right windows as you can see all around! As for flying down at low level, throw in the height hold and look out the window!!! In reality, they are probably not going to an airliner crash but helping find a boat/ship in immediate distress (which is not what we're discussing here).

As we've seen so sadly recently, time is of the essence to find wreckage/survivors of an airline crash. Therefore, waiting for Grimrod to load it's pies and sponge cakes and getting airborne after 2 hours plus the 3 hour transit to 30W would probably be a wasted journey for a downed passenger jet (which is what this thread was all about - remember?). The C130 or Irish CN235 would also probably be too late as most airlines rely on the slides on the aircraft for passenger survival - after 5-6 hours of floating exposed on a slide, in comfy clothes, probably injured due to the crap seat belts and being squeezed into the airliner like sardines whilst landing on mountainous swells found in the North Atlantic. I doubt there would be that many left (if at all). So in harsh reality - why would you bother? The passengers in an airliner are probably already dead before the dear old Grimrod has got the second pie in the galley.

So there you have it. I suspect we are already covering our responsibility as a 'rich nation' with plenty of assets that may be used in assistance. Trying to resurrect Grimrod Mk5 off the back of LR SAR is plain du,b and we would be far better off extoling the virtues of a MPA for it's real core tasks - protecting the deterent, protecting the (as yet undelivered) carriers, providing Maritime surface picture over the horizon, maritime air-surface attack and finally Maritime ISTAR. Those are the core roles of an MPA and not pretending to be a multi-engined version of Baywatch (Speedos not inlcuded!).

LJ :ok:

Sorry about the size, but look at this Boeing 747 emergency card and look at the bottom and you will see what I mean about emergency slides! Not an MS10 or MS24 in sight! :eek:

http://airchive.com/galleries/luftha...etya_23205.jpg

By the way, I'm not singling out Lufthansa here - all the airlines do this on their big jets!

LJ

And here is an A380...:eek:

http://www.sollerthoughts.com/wp-con...03/qf380-2.jpg

LJ

You have spent too long around FCs or ABMs (or have they changed the name to Death Star Operatives yet to keep it punchy).

E3s can see all they need to see, fast jets at 30W looking for the bits. I think you have been to some of the recent AMI group-thinks, only you thought it was all true!

I fear that LJ is right when he says that an LRMP aicraft of the Nimrod's capabilities cannot be justified solely for ASR duties alone but I cannot allow his sarcastic “Therefore, waiting for Grimrod to load it's pies and sponge cakes and getting airborne after 2 hours plus the 3 hour transit to 30W would probably be a wasted journey for a downed passenger jet (which is what this thread was all about – remember?)” go unchallenged.


Does he really think that the aircraft was only pre-flight readied when a distress call came in? It would have been inspected and set up by the duty crew when they took over the SAR responsibility, and 20 minutes from fast asleep in your bunk at 2 in the morning to airborne and on your way was normal. Quicker in daylight.


And a visual search includes the area directly below the aircraft and for a short distance out a-beam, where only the beam look-outs in their bubble windows can monitor for long, long stretches of time.

LJ,

Buy back of the MPA is not based on its SAR role. SAR is a role an MPA can do along with many other capabilities, some of which have been recognised as being gaps which need to be filled.

Your scenario is again one which fits your assumed capability and lack of awareness.

Add a bit of reality. Is your FJ mate on Q authorised for this mission?

This implies some form of qualification and currency?

Let's add some realistic environmental conditions for 30W at northern latitudes in winter.

Night, sea state above 5+, 30Kts + on the surface. Cloud base 300ft solid up to 20'000ft.

Finding the wreckage of a downed airliner will be a challenge in this environment.

In the real world we also need to provide SAR for things as small as a man over board to a fixed oil rig and everything in between.

Each scenario has its own challenges which I could expand upon.

Also in addition whilst there may not be survivors from a big airline crash there is a requirement to conduct a board of inquiry so a datum for searches for the black boxes need to be established.


You have spent too much time in the company of ABM who really should stay in bunkers!

In order to add a little credibility to the AIS statement from Phoney Tony.

AIS is not mandatory for vessels of less than 300 tonnes but is often fitted. At between £500 - £1000 for a set its a cheap way of not getting run down by a cargo ship whilst dicking around in your yacht or fishing vessel. At that price it's also cheaper than a surface search radar and easier to use too.

Typhoons doing SAR? Absolutely f'ing hilarious :D:rolleyes: Just what would be the point? Only someone who has never done SAR could possibly conceive that this would be viable!!


Still I suppose it's slightly more viable than drones doing SAR which will probably be the latest Air Force (LJ) fantasy.

And as for this:

. Well strangely enough, the 50-odd aircraft and 50-odd ships currently searching for a 777 would suggest that you would bother. Only right now the UK wouldn't bother as we don't have a capability to do so. I think LJ must have been on something stronger than ale whilst watching the 6N

There would be no problem with an E-3 coordinating a major SAR effort - the sensors, communications and datalink fit are all fully compatible with what is needed. Indeed, the E-3 trains for and has been used operationally in overland CSAR. As high level (30,000 ft) top cover for C3, it has no equal. However, SAR visual search is impossible and the E-3 has no bomb bay to drop equipment from so it does have its limitations.


The main problem is that the E-3D is not scaled for SAR operations. There are insufficient airframes and trained crews to maintain NATO tasking and also to run a standby commitment. The E-3 takes quite a big lead time to get airborne without prior notice and therefore could probably only be useful if already in the vicinity. I will add (and I have stated this on many other threads) that the E-3D is tasked by NATO and the RAF does not have the authority to routinely place an E-3 on standby for SAR (ask the SOs who used to ring Waddington to ask for an E-3 to be placed on QRA to be told to contact Force Command at SHAPE where it was regularly refused because there was an E-3A on alert at GK).


The E-3D has successfully achieved maritime tasks, including counter drugs and SAR in the past - it is just an impractical aircraft for SAR standby commitment - technically, operationally, and currently financially. It could be used in such a role, but it would take a big increase in funding, training, and resources to make it effective.

Oh do keep up 007...

When did I say that Typhoons would do the whole SAR thing. I'm just saying that if you want some eyes and ears in a disaster area quick then UK QRA can be used - this would be the first part of the Search. However, just like the Grimrod, there is no possibility of Rescue!!!

I've been asked to go look for missing sailing boats and an Army Patrol in the Falklands in a Tornado. At the end of the day, if someone is in trouble you would use any available asset to help. I seem to remember that a CASTLE class did the rescue of the sailing boat and that the Army Patrol that we found was picked up by a Chinook.

Oh, and the authorisation is broad and planning is done 'on the hoof' on QRA for a variety of missions. In days of old there were 2 in the jet doing it, but these days just one - however the FCs on frequency provide valuable resource for airborne replanning!

Yes, Wensleydale, I agree wholeheartedly. However, if we had an airliner go down mid Atlantic, I suspect that the NAEW FC would authorise an E-3 to be there pretty sharpish.

LJ

Exactly. And my whole point of starting this thread. Britain will look a right bunch of dickheads if we got ourselves into this scenario. People DO and ARE bothered and it won't be solved by a Typhoon pilot fannying around in fantasyland at 30W at 200'. We all know you can fly at low level and see bad guys at meninge miles but this is about a methodical, long and laborious task that at the moment, has been going on for over a week.

And i wouldn't be the man i am today without all those pies...

Yes, Wensleydale, I agree wholeheartedly. However, if we had an airliner go down mid Atlantic, I suspect that the NAEW FC would authorise an E-3 to be there pretty sharpish.


What E-3? FC refused to allow CinC Strike to keep an E-3 on permanent QRA standby in the early days of the aircraft, and without an aircraft and crew allocated then the ability of Waddington to get a serviceable E-3 and full crew airborne at short notice is very limited (unless the availability requirement is increased, in which case much more cash would need to be invested). In theory, the E-3D can carry out the task - in practise, it will need much more investment for other than opportunity tasking for an already airborne aircraft.

The OP raised the scenario of an airliner ditching at 30W.
This scenario constitutes a Mass Rescue Operation.
I recall attending a large, high level, well attended, international SAR conference some years ago (probably over 10) that discussed responses to MRO. The conference concluded that no country was well placed to deal with an MRO, particularly that of an airliner ditching at range (as opposed to a sinking ship).
Delegates were brigaded into syndicates and played out scenarios to explore the issues. There was a reasonable cadre of UK RAF Nimrod and SARF attendees (of which I was one). After spending two days with our international colleagues exploring how such a scenario would be managed, it became very clear to all that, other than in a limited number of very narrow circumstances, a good outcome for an airliner ditching at range (even with rapid MPA response and rapid location) was unlikely.
At the risk of over simplifying the challenges (we did a fair bit of maths and plotting over the week) the main problems are not associated with location but with the inability to either drop enough ASRA (or ASRAesque) equipment or to actually recover enough people. Once you're in the water your stuffed (if you're really lucky and get into one of the airliner's liferafts you may do better).
Assuming a passenger capacity for a 777 of 300 or so people (it's more likely to be higher) and then divide that by the number of liferafts you need to drop. Multiply that by the number of aircraft needed to carry them.

The only good outcome is if there is surface traffic nearby with the capacity to assist. For MRO at range, other than post-hoc location, air capability is pretty helpless really.

Sun

Wensleydale

From 2007 I know, but there was an E-3D supporting this mission reported in the Torygraph. It was not a NATO tasked jet and we held it on 60-90 minutes standby for it (depending on what the MC required). That is well after the 'early days of E-3 and STC'.

RAF jets intercept eight Russian bombers - Telegraph

Sun Who

Well said. :D:D A 30W airliner ditching only needs an MPA to help with everyone else to find bodies and wreckage!

LJ

So, for all the naysayers about an MPA/MMA. It's disgraceful that we can't help. From the bbc...

"They are also asking countries to provide assistance in the search for the plane, including satellite data and analysis, ground-search capabilities, and maritime and air assets."

LJ,


The E-3D can change a planned mission with the permission of FC provided that the original mission was a routine training sortie but did not provide the minimum agreed quantity of training for the crew. It may well be that Waddington requested the change to "QRA" from such a sortie. In any event, the permission of FC would have to have been obtained to carry out the tasking (unless, of course, a routine training sortie was planned in the UK that day, and it was held on the ground to meet the Q commitment). It became a quite frequent occurrence for the E-3D to move TACON to the UK if a continental TACON could not provide any aircraft to control.

Wensleydale

Fair enough mate, I've never worked at FC. However, I did draft the note that fessed up that the UK would only have 6ac instead of the original 7 :eek:

LJ :ok:

Betty

I'm sure that the UK are probably offering other capabilities to this effort; just not an MPA :ok:

LJ

Fair enough mate, I've never worked at FC. However, I did draft the note that fessed up that the UK would only have 6ac instead of the original 7.

Only 6 of the aircraft were assigned to NATO. The seventh aircraft was for ab-initio training and flight trials which were a national, rather than NATO, responsibility. ZH105 disappeared after my time at Waddington so I am not sure of the current declared requirement and whether we still declare 5 or 6 aircraft.

LJ,

It's a good job that the search has been going on for a week and likely to be ongoing - it'll take a while for any worthwhile UK assets to get there!

Duncs

Duncs

I'm thinking about capabilities that were there before the search even started...

Sometimes you have to look for more subtle clues elsewhere :ok:

LJ

Will this tragic incident affect the decision whether to purchase P8 in the 2015 review?

No, it will not, neither one way, nor the other. Nor should it.

Sun.

LJ

That wasn't really my point.

Again, from the BBC...

"Late on Monday, US officials said the US navy ship USS Kidd had been taken off the search because the enlarged search area meant that "long-range patrol aircraft" were "more suited" to the mission."

...and it really is time to stop talking solely of an "MPA". We must get our head round the concept of an MMA. The days of a pure MPA are long gone.

Utilising MPA for the search in this scenario is of course obvious,however this extremely rare event and the fact that any MPA would not be able to have saved anyone in Western European waters is hardly the evidence or persuading argument that will convince the government to go out and buy a fleet.

So, read the title of the thread!!! And the first post!!!

Long range SAR at 30W for a downed airliner would be as I have already said purely be a search for wreckage. There would be no rescue and an identical scenario in the UK area of responsibility would be terrible but, no MPA/MMA would make the blindest bit of difference to the outcome.