Time to scramble - RAF F4s on QRA
 

Without intending to ask anything that may still be classified...
Roughly how long did it used to take from getting the Scramble call on the telebrief, to actually calling Judy and being up behind or beside a Bear?
I realise this would be dependent on which airfield you're departing from, and where the target was - so lets say Leuchars and average interception distance/altitude for a target (I have no idea what that would have been).
I have looked online, also watch a few F4 scramble videos, but they seem to be edited, so the climb-in, start up, taxy out, take off sequence is hard to estimate.
Question motivated by nothing more than pure aviation geekery on my part. ;)

Not sure about the F4, but in the Shackleton.....


Normally on 2 hours at home when the call to scramble came in (Buchan MCs never seemed to understand the need for a smooth transition through the alert states). 17 mile journey from home to base in No 2s (even when on QRA we were not allowed to travel in flying kit). Arrive on the Squadron (occasionally after a few minutes waiting at the runway crossing lights) and change into flying kit. Bus to the aircraft, start engines, and take-off followed by the transit north at 160 kts.


I would say that about 4 hours from the scramble call to intercept was about normal (although the Bears had usually gone back west of 30E by the time we got to barrier and F4s not scrambled - the usual response from Buchan was "remain to PLE" while we watched empty radar for a few hours and ate lots of honkers/compo sausages).


On a good crew, you could arrange for your flying kit in its pre-prepared holdall to be taken onto the aircraft by one of the chaps who lived a little closer and you went from car park direct to aircraft and changed into goon suit etc on the taxi out. It usually worked smoothly but we once got airborne in the wee small hours without the second Nav/radio operator who had fallen asleep on the back seat of the crew bus and had been left behind in the change into kit confusion!


It could be a little quicker with a motor cycle (even my little 125) because you could hide flying kit under the waterproofs. My record was from call at home to airborne in 32 minutes, including the 17 mile travel! We didn't have speed cameras in those days but you had to watch out for PC McPlod with his speed gun in the small villages en-route.

As you correctly hinted at, Tartare, the answer is, very much, 'it depends'. Hooter to airborne was 10 minutes in the UK, 5 in Germany. After that it depends where you start from, where the Bear Bear is and where it's going and how urgent the MC decided things were.

I was scrambled once from Conningsby to intercept a Badger that popped up in the North Sea, so we blasted out there at max chat. On the other hand, scrambled fro Leuchars to meet our friends at the FIR boundary would have meant transiting pretty close to range speed, say 300 kts as there was no point in getting there early and all out of fuel and ideas - remembering that the tanker and Shackleton crews could take a good while longer to get there.

It wouldn't be unusual to take 1:00 to 1:15 from wheels up to ident if we were going northeast of the Faroes.

It wouldn't really make much difference what aircraft you're talking about, the distances for that type of Q sortie remain the same. A bit different for Lightning (the real one, not the new invisible, fake bomber) as it was designed for a quick blast to altitude at relatively short range. That meant that Cold War Q could be more of a challenge - one that they rose to magnificently, I should add.

"P" (Penetration) time to the UKADR boundary (red line) was calculated as the Bears crossed 30E around North Cape. This varied a little depending on upper winds, but was usually 2:15 mins. If a tanker was available it was ordered from 3hrs to 60mins - except if good int was available it must just be scrambled (it commonly got airborne in less than 1-2 hours.)

Transit time to the edge of the UKADR from Leuchars was around 60 mins (Shetlands); so Q1 would be scrambled 1:15 prior to P-Time, unsupported. The tanker would be scrambled at the same time.

All going well, Q1 would make the intercept at the edge of radar cover (blue line) as the tanker was airborne and picking up Q2 as it passed abeam Leuchars. Q1 would RTB and, as Q2 dropped off the tanker and headed north to continue to shadow, Q1 would refuel and head back north with the tanker. Since the Bears came in pairs, and Foxtrots would split, this allowed a shadow for each and the tanker as a radio relay if they were operating at low level.

if no tanker was available then Q3 would be generated as Q1 launched, Q2 scrambled 60 minutes after Q1 as a replacement, etc etc.

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/vo.../ukadr-map.jpg

If you went through the steps - 3hrs to RS60, RS60 to RS30, Rs30 to CR - it took 3 hours to get them airborne. If you scrambled from 3hrs then the average was between 1-2 hours. Which with the P-Time of 2:15 from the decision to intercept usually meant the difference as whether it was even worth the effort.

Yep, could always rely on the Shackleton to arrive several hours after the party was over. :ok:

Time it yourself ;):


Crikey, there's some ugly mugs...

Rgds,

Vernon

Gentlemen - thank you, a pleasure as always.
Something learned - I had assumed the Shackleton was purely MPA, ASW.
I had no idea of its AEW role... no offense intended Wensley.
And I'd assumed you'd all be up there for an hour at the most, not several.
Very interesting...
Forgive my ignorance - so the Shackleton gave you a more precise vector to the target - as well as keeping an eye on any other potential threats - the equivalent for the time of an AWACs of sorts?

Not always!

We were once keeping an eye on a brace of Bears, which left the area of interest to the south-west and descended to low level....

Some hours later, a Shacklebomber picked up a contact well to the west heading north, which hadn't been seen by the concrete cave-dwellers. The vector which was called by the Shacklebomber team resulted in a successful intercept, which turned out to be one of the previous Bears on its way back to Mother Russia.

Without the Shack., we wouldn't have been able to make a successful intercept as the geometry which would have resulted from an SOC contact would have yielded a lengthy stern chase and the Sovs would have been well out of the area of interest before we could have nabbed them.

Presumably in a more routine sortie, the Shackleton was able to push the radar horizon a few hundred miles east, giving more intercept time?

CG

"Presumably in a more routine sortie, the Shackleton was able to push the radar horizon a few hundred miles east, giving more intercept time?"






Well, perhaps 60 miles on a very good day over-sea only! There is only so much that you can do with a 1943 designed radar in a 1949 designed airframe!! (Probably better than a Nimrod 3 though).

I drew that, ORAC. Glad it's been used at last.

The "Turning away, RTB" was a little presumptious whilst looking at the Youtube video.
"Oh, just a minute, they've turned back again":)

Did no crews ever perform a 'Top Gun movie' inverted photo shot?:8

Reading the numbers on the gear doors at night by the light of an engine in burner just would not have seemed credible enough for Top Gun...

Not always!

We were once keeping an eye on a brace of Bears, which left the area of interest to the south-west and descended to low level....

Some hours later, a Shacklebomber picked up a contact well to the west heading north, which hadn't been seen by the concrete cave-dwellers. The vector which was called by the Shacklebomber team resulted in a successful intercept, which turned out to be one of the previous Bears on its way back to Mother Russia.

Without the Shack., we wouldn't have been able to make a successful intercept as the geometry which would have resulted from an SOC contact would have yielded a lengthy stern chase and the Sovs would have been well out of the area of interest before we could have nabbed them.


So, that's one intercept they helped with. I was lucky enough to hop a ride to Iceland on one in the 80's. We arrived on Jul 4th and the pilot(s) did a fly by. When we landed we were mobbed by the Americans who thought we had brought an aircraft from a Museum. When they were told it was actually going to be on QRA due to a lack of Sentry aircraft there was stunned silence...
Great few days though and it was a great experience.
However, as an AEW platfrom it had about as much impact as a sparrow fart in a hurricane.

I recall a story going around in the early 80s that a Shacklebomber was searching for a lost Bear when one of the Navs saw it out of a cabin window in the rear fuselage. Unfortunately and allegedly there was no intercom position close to the can so he had to do a shuffle to get onto intercom. Bear found.

I don't believe the Sea Kings were any better. On a SWAPPS exercise we got a call giving us bogeydope on 4 Super Etendards. When asked how they knew they were Super-Es, the reply was "they just flew underneath us."

Happy days.

Regards,

Vernon

BIG V.

How dare you call me ugly.

We ground crew had a fun day filming that scramble. I must have knocked the camera over at least twice running to the aircraft. The director wasn't best pleased.

Good days, I had forgotten all about that until you posted.

Thanks :ok:

Hi Claron,

Glad you enjoyed the vid. My reference to ugly mugs was more directed at the aircrew but if the cap fits etc :rolleyes:. I must have been on the sqn at the time but don't recall the filming. However I can remember a photo shoot for one of the aviation comics when we took their "reporter" flying.

Regards,

Vernon

Did you just not like County Kerry in Ireland ?

I adore Co Kerry, a beautiful place. It's just that Bishop's Court couldn't see that far. ORAC didn't post the whole key from my website - the blue line is the theoretical radar coverage at 30,000'. Red line is the UKADR boundary.

ORAC, I take that as a typo.

QRA was never more than 2 hrs. As Wensleydale said, at 2 hrs we could be at home.

The normal progression was to 90 minutes which, theoretically, meant we had to stay on base.

In practice we were usually relaxed to 2 hrs even when 90 minutes would have been more sensible.

I lived 45 minutes away and have been airborne within 60 minutes. If there was a queue at the main gate we would drive in through the OUT and down the one-way street the wrong way. The police never said a word.

Actually the benefit was to the north east of Saxa or occasionally west of Benbecula.

On one occasion I got a pick up at 200 miles, we tracked for about 4 hours until they out ran us to the south west but Q and Tansor were in contact. When the Bears turned north we regained and gave chase :). I eventually lost them at 225 miles.

On another occasion we were over the Kiev and well beyond UKADGE. Kiev launched a Forger to see us off the premises and Buchan scrambled an F4 'for your protection'. Thanks guys, the F4 was 550 miles away.

We had one or two other QRA incidents not involving enemy forces but that is a different story.

There is truth in this, in fact often 24 hours late.

As a result of the Nott Cuts we were down to a one-shot Q. If launched then there would be no further QRA until the following day. This made the ADOC reluctant to launch prematurely. I guess that would be when the Bears may have been suspected to be the Bear D/F on the Cuba run and transiting the Denmark Strait. Also the single Coot could not reach the UKADR so again we were not alerted for that either.

If, OTOH, they could slip in the Bear A/E combine we would usually be called forward for a timed launch based on the P-time. The really gotcha was if they push the Bear F out at low level.

In that case we would generally be launched too late or not at all. The next day, in anticipation, we would be launched again and that was ALWAYS exciting. We usually ran out of food before we ran out of fuel.

One shot Q! With just 6 crews in total, we held Q from 0800 Monday until 1700 Friday. Buchan once tried to scramble a crew at 1705 on a Friday - too late, we were already in Happy Hour!

Walk don't run!
 

I was in charge of the ground crew whilst on ‘Q’ with the Phantoms at Leuchers with that damn box ticking away persistantly.

Early one afternoon one of the pilots came in and said “Buchan has picked up some Bears taking off from #########, we shall be running at 16:30”.

I replied “Can’t we walk at 16:20”.

If looks could have killed I wouldn’t be writing this.

At 16:30 the hooter went off and the aircrew came out running like hell to find us all ready for them with power sets running etc. They were not amused. :ok:

P Time
 

ORAC - just slight correction old man - P was was usually 2hrs 10mins - and the butt of many jokes! CB:ok:

Wyler
 

Hours - surely you mean days Mr G.

That said, the Kiev incident was a Saturday. I took a photo at 0600 having just returned from leave at midnight Friday.

Of course it was a planned launch and I had to go in early to read GASOs, the FOB, and stop press :)

So there is truth in the rumour that it wasn't UFO's there were spiriting people away, they were eaten by their own crew :E

I went on a trip on one once - 8 hours Lossie to Coningsby. It was a different world. Oven chips featured amongst the vats of food and drinks that were produced.

We transited all the way down to the exercise area off the Wash but the radar went TU. I don't think it was a wind-up but everyone apart from the handling pilot huddled each side of the main spar then jumped up and down together, ostensibly to get the klystron (I think) to work. I don't think the radar was young enough for a magnetron.

I also remember another capex when the Shack turned up with a U/S radar. I felt sorry for them so gave them an alpha control run onto us. The calls of "Fox 1" and "Fox 2" were a delight to hear. The poor chaps then had a long trudge all the way back north.

Happy days.

Regards,

Vernon

Wensley might remember better (he was younger) but the klystron was a bucket sized valve much prized as a fireside ornament. IIRC there was a metal rod inside with a number of metal spheres and indeed could get stuck.

Equally, through adroit switchery, it was possible to coat the inside of the tube with the metal balls thus expediting its usefulness as a fireside ornament. Not to put too finer point on it, I hated the bl**dy machine.

Much more class
 

Scramble Scramble Scramble Lightnings. - YouTube

That's the kind of thing you need to see, how it really used to be done.

Short sleeves, sunshine, daytime, six serviceable aircraft on one station, ah, them were the days.

Yeah picked that earlier in random Utube posts and was a good video.

Indeed. And no wasting the defence budget and peoples' lives in a futile North-West Frontier war of attrition....:ugh:

Jumping up and down:


There was a spring operated switch on the Shack Radar control panel which was held on to bring up the high voltage on the radar. This switch drove a rheostat that was like the "Wheatstone Bridge" that we used at school - a motor moved the arm along a metal coil to allow more voltage into the system until your gauge on the display showed that you had enough ergs to operate the radar. Sadly this arm, which was located under the floor between the pilot's seats, could frequently jam and the switch would not bring up the required voltage. The only solution was to get your 2 heaviest chaps on the crew (and there were a few) to jump up and down over the arm to try and free it while the radar operator held the high volts switch on. It sometimes worked, but the sight of a "Hakka" being religiously performed by the crew and the radar magically appearing on the scopes was often too much for passengers to take in!


Incidentally, when a Shackleton went to Marshals for a service, they found fatigue cracking in a spar between the pilots seats. The fleet was about to be grounded for testing etc when the radar team found out and explained the probable cause!


As for a U/S radar - during moratorium in the early 1980s, we were forbidden to dump fuel and we had to burn it into hours, even with no primary sensor. Sadly, landing weight was usually 6 hours away and so we did a good few nav exes and SAR drills to pass away the hours! Acting as a target was also an option on occasions. The annoying time was when the groundcrew had a spate of NFF and we had a succession of non-operating radars during a week. Lots of DCS consumed on those days!

Was that testiment to your navigatorial prowess, Vern? :eek::E:ok:

Nah! Light headwind............I'll get my coat...........

No Courtney, if it had been me it would have taken 10 hours!:{

Pontius Navigator, Wensleydale ...

Have either of you chaps got a pic of said valve you could share ...

Used to like watching the 8 Sqdn Shacks, nice sound with 4 griffins turning.

MC = Master Controller?
PLE = Planes Limit of Endurance?

And why the the Shack have that spark plug looking thing on top for? I first thought HF aerial but you didn't see that on other aircraft so that idea went out of the window.

Although I tried I never did catch a real QRA with a Shackleton on my radios but living so far south didn't help although exercise time was always fun to monitor. Hearing two F4's being told by a tanker on joining up that he had no fuel for them was one thing, hearing their response on the sqdn air/air was, shall we say amusing.