Time to scramble - RAF F4s on QRA
Thread Starter
Time to scramble - RAF F4s on QRA
Without intending to ask anything that may still be classified...
Roughly how long did it used to take from getting the Scramble call on the telebrief, to actually calling Judy and being up behind or beside a Bear?
I realise this would be dependent on which airfield you're departing from, and where the target was - so lets say Leuchars and average interception distance/altitude for a target (I have no idea what that would have been).
I have looked online, also watch a few F4 scramble videos, but they seem to be edited, so the climb-in, start up, taxy out, take off sequence is hard to estimate.
Question motivated by nothing more than pure aviation geekery on my part.
Roughly how long did it used to take from getting the Scramble call on the telebrief, to actually calling Judy and being up behind or beside a Bear?
I realise this would be dependent on which airfield you're departing from, and where the target was - so lets say Leuchars and average interception distance/altitude for a target (I have no idea what that would have been).
I have looked online, also watch a few F4 scramble videos, but they seem to be edited, so the climb-in, start up, taxy out, take off sequence is hard to estimate.
Question motivated by nothing more than pure aviation geekery on my part.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
Not sure about the F4, but in the Shackleton.....
Normally on 2 hours at home when the call to scramble came in (Buchan MCs never seemed to understand the need for a smooth transition through the alert states). 17 mile journey from home to base in No 2s (even when on QRA we were not allowed to travel in flying kit). Arrive on the Squadron (occasionally after a few minutes waiting at the runway crossing lights) and change into flying kit. Bus to the aircraft, start engines, and take-off followed by the transit north at 160 kts.
I would say that about 4 hours from the scramble call to intercept was about normal (although the Bears had usually gone back west of 30E by the time we got to barrier and F4s not scrambled - the usual response from Buchan was "remain to PLE" while we watched empty radar for a few hours and ate lots of honkers/compo sausages).
On a good crew, you could arrange for your flying kit in its pre-prepared holdall to be taken onto the aircraft by one of the chaps who lived a little closer and you went from car park direct to aircraft and changed into goon suit etc on the taxi out. It usually worked smoothly but we once got airborne in the wee small hours without the second Nav/radio operator who had fallen asleep on the back seat of the crew bus and had been left behind in the change into kit confusion!
It could be a little quicker with a motor cycle (even my little 125) because you could hide flying kit under the waterproofs. My record was from call at home to airborne in 32 minutes, including the 17 mile travel! We didn't have speed cameras in those days but you had to watch out for PC McPlod with his speed gun in the small villages en-route.
Normally on 2 hours at home when the call to scramble came in (Buchan MCs never seemed to understand the need for a smooth transition through the alert states). 17 mile journey from home to base in No 2s (even when on QRA we were not allowed to travel in flying kit). Arrive on the Squadron (occasionally after a few minutes waiting at the runway crossing lights) and change into flying kit. Bus to the aircraft, start engines, and take-off followed by the transit north at 160 kts.
I would say that about 4 hours from the scramble call to intercept was about normal (although the Bears had usually gone back west of 30E by the time we got to barrier and F4s not scrambled - the usual response from Buchan was "remain to PLE" while we watched empty radar for a few hours and ate lots of honkers/compo sausages).
On a good crew, you could arrange for your flying kit in its pre-prepared holdall to be taken onto the aircraft by one of the chaps who lived a little closer and you went from car park direct to aircraft and changed into goon suit etc on the taxi out. It usually worked smoothly but we once got airborne in the wee small hours without the second Nav/radio operator who had fallen asleep on the back seat of the crew bus and had been left behind in the change into kit confusion!
It could be a little quicker with a motor cycle (even my little 125) because you could hide flying kit under the waterproofs. My record was from call at home to airborne in 32 minutes, including the 17 mile travel! We didn't have speed cameras in those days but you had to watch out for PC McPlod with his speed gun in the small villages en-route.
As you correctly hinted at, Tartare, the answer is, very much, 'it depends'. Hooter to airborne was 10 minutes in the UK, 5 in Germany. After that it depends where you start from, where the Bear Bear is and where it's going and how urgent the MC decided things were.
I was scrambled once from Conningsby to intercept a Badger that popped up in the North Sea, so we blasted out there at max chat. On the other hand, scrambled fro Leuchars to meet our friends at the FIR boundary would have meant transiting pretty close to range speed, say 300 kts as there was no point in getting there early and all out of fuel and ideas - remembering that the tanker and Shackleton crews could take a good while longer to get there.
It wouldn't be unusual to take 1:00 to 1:15 from wheels up to ident if we were going northeast of the Faroes.
It wouldn't really make much difference what aircraft you're talking about, the distances for that type of Q sortie remain the same. A bit different for Lightning (the real one, not the new invisible, fake bomber) as it was designed for a quick blast to altitude at relatively short range. That meant that Cold War Q could be more of a challenge - one that they rose to magnificently, I should add.
I was scrambled once from Conningsby to intercept a Badger that popped up in the North Sea, so we blasted out there at max chat. On the other hand, scrambled fro Leuchars to meet our friends at the FIR boundary would have meant transiting pretty close to range speed, say 300 kts as there was no point in getting there early and all out of fuel and ideas - remembering that the tanker and Shackleton crews could take a good while longer to get there.
It wouldn't be unusual to take 1:00 to 1:15 from wheels up to ident if we were going northeast of the Faroes.
It wouldn't really make much difference what aircraft you're talking about, the distances for that type of Q sortie remain the same. A bit different for Lightning (the real one, not the new invisible, fake bomber) as it was designed for a quick blast to altitude at relatively short range. That meant that Cold War Q could be more of a challenge - one that they rose to magnificently, I should add.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
"P" (Penetration) time to the UKADR boundary (red line) was calculated as the Bears crossed 30E around North Cape. This varied a little depending on upper winds, but was usually 2:15 mins. If a tanker was available it was ordered from 3hrs to 60mins - except if good int was available it must just be scrambled (it commonly got airborne in less than 1-2 hours.)
Transit time to the edge of the UKADR from Leuchars was around 60 mins (Shetlands); so Q1 would be scrambled 1:15 prior to P-Time, unsupported. The tanker would be scrambled at the same time.
All going well, Q1 would make the intercept at the edge of radar cover (blue line) as the tanker was airborne and picking up Q2 as it passed abeam Leuchars. Q1 would RTB and, as Q2 dropped off the tanker and headed north to continue to shadow, Q1 would refuel and head back north with the tanker. Since the Bears came in pairs, and Foxtrots would split, this allowed a shadow for each and the tanker as a radio relay if they were operating at low level.
if no tanker was available then Q3 would be generated as Q1 launched, Q2 scrambled 60 minutes after Q1 as a replacement, etc etc.
Transit time to the edge of the UKADR from Leuchars was around 60 mins (Shetlands); so Q1 would be scrambled 1:15 prior to P-Time, unsupported. The tanker would be scrambled at the same time.
All going well, Q1 would make the intercept at the edge of radar cover (blue line) as the tanker was airborne and picking up Q2 as it passed abeam Leuchars. Q1 would RTB and, as Q2 dropped off the tanker and headed north to continue to shadow, Q1 would refuel and head back north with the tanker. Since the Bears came in pairs, and Foxtrots would split, this allowed a shadow for each and the tanker as a radio relay if they were operating at low level.
if no tanker was available then Q3 would be generated as Q1 launched, Q2 scrambled 60 minutes after Q1 as a replacement, etc etc.
Last edited by ORAC; 10th Jan 2014 at 08:34.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Normally on 2 hours at home when the call to scramble came in (Buchan MCs never seemed to understand the need for a smooth transition through the alert states).
Thread Starter
Gentlemen - thank you, a pleasure as always.
Something learned - I had assumed the Shackleton was purely MPA, ASW.
I had no idea of its AEW role... no offense intended Wensley.
And I'd assumed you'd all be up there for an hour at the most, not several.
Very interesting...
Forgive my ignorance - so the Shackleton gave you a more precise vector to the target - as well as keeping an eye on any other potential threats - the equivalent for the time of an AWACs of sorts?
Something learned - I had assumed the Shackleton was purely MPA, ASW.
I had no idea of its AEW role... no offense intended Wensley.
And I'd assumed you'd all be up there for an hour at the most, not several.
Very interesting...
Forgive my ignorance - so the Shackleton gave you a more precise vector to the target - as well as keeping an eye on any other potential threats - the equivalent for the time of an AWACs of sorts?
Yep, could always rely on the Shackleton to arrive several hours after the party was over.
We were once keeping an eye on a brace of Bears, which left the area of interest to the south-west and descended to low level....
Some hours later, a Shacklebomber picked up a contact well to the west heading north, which hadn't been seen by the concrete cave-dwellers. The vector which was called by the Shacklebomber team resulted in a successful intercept, which turned out to be one of the previous Bears on its way back to Mother Russia.
Without the Shack., we wouldn't have been able to make a successful intercept as the geometry which would have resulted from an SOC contact would have yielded a lengthy stern chase and the Sovs would have been well out of the area of interest before we could have nabbed them.
Presumably in a more routine sortie, the Shackleton was able to push the radar horizon a few hundred miles east, giving more intercept time?
CG
CG
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
"Presumably in a more routine sortie, the Shackleton was able to push the radar horizon a few hundred miles east, giving more intercept time?"
Well, perhaps 60 miles on a very good day over-sea only! There is only so much that you can do with a 1943 designed radar in a 1949 designed airframe!! (Probably better than a Nimrod 3 though).
Well, perhaps 60 miles on a very good day over-sea only! There is only so much that you can do with a 1943 designed radar in a 1949 designed airframe!! (Probably better than a Nimrod 3 though).
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: R4808E
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The "Turning away, RTB" was a little presumptious whilst looking at the Youtube video.
"Oh, just a minute, they've turned back again"
Did no crews ever perform a 'Top Gun movie' inverted photo shot?
"Oh, just a minute, they've turned back again"
Did no crews ever perform a 'Top Gun movie' inverted photo shot?
Not always!
We were once keeping an eye on a brace of Bears, which left the area of interest to the south-west and descended to low level....
Some hours later, a Shacklebomber picked up a contact well to the west heading north, which hadn't been seen by the concrete cave-dwellers. The vector which was called by the Shacklebomber team resulted in a successful intercept, which turned out to be one of the previous Bears on its way back to Mother Russia.
Without the Shack., we wouldn't have been able to make a successful intercept as the geometry which would have resulted from an SOC contact would have yielded a lengthy stern chase and the Sovs would have been well out of the area of interest before we could have nabbed them.
So, that's one intercept they helped with. I was lucky enough to hop a ride to Iceland on one in the 80's. We arrived on Jul 4th and the pilot(s) did a fly by. When we landed we were mobbed by the Americans who thought we had brought an aircraft from a Museum. When they were told it was actually going to be on QRA due to a lack of Sentry aircraft there was stunned silence...
Great few days though and it was a great experience.
However, as an AEW platfrom it had about as much impact as a sparrow fart in a hurricane.
We were once keeping an eye on a brace of Bears, which left the area of interest to the south-west and descended to low level....
Some hours later, a Shacklebomber picked up a contact well to the west heading north, which hadn't been seen by the concrete cave-dwellers. The vector which was called by the Shacklebomber team resulted in a successful intercept, which turned out to be one of the previous Bears on its way back to Mother Russia.
Without the Shack., we wouldn't have been able to make a successful intercept as the geometry which would have resulted from an SOC contact would have yielded a lengthy stern chase and the Sovs would have been well out of the area of interest before we could have nabbed them.
So, that's one intercept they helped with. I was lucky enough to hop a ride to Iceland on one in the 80's. We arrived on Jul 4th and the pilot(s) did a fly by. When we landed we were mobbed by the Americans who thought we had brought an aircraft from a Museum. When they were told it was actually going to be on QRA due to a lack of Sentry aircraft there was stunned silence...
Great few days though and it was a great experience.
However, as an AEW platfrom it had about as much impact as a sparrow fart in a hurricane.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: People's Republic
Age: 68
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I recall a story going around in the early 80s that a Shacklebomber was searching for a lost Bear when one of the Navs saw it out of a cabin window in the rear fuselage. Unfortunately and allegedly there was no intercom position close to the can so he had to do a shuffle to get onto intercom. Bear found.
I don't believe the Sea Kings were any better. On a SWAPPS exercise we got a call giving us bogeydope on 4 Super Etendards. When asked how they knew they were Super-Es, the reply was "they just flew underneath us."
Happy days.
Regards,
Vernon
I don't believe the Sea Kings were any better. On a SWAPPS exercise we got a call giving us bogeydope on 4 Super Etendards. When asked how they knew they were Super-Es, the reply was "they just flew underneath us."
Happy days.
Regards,
Vernon
Join Date: May 2010
Location: southend on sea
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BIG V.
How dare you call me ugly.
We ground crew had a fun day filming that scramble. I must have knocked the camera over at least twice running to the aircraft. The director wasn't best pleased.
Good days, I had forgotten all about that until you posted.
Thanks
How dare you call me ugly.
We ground crew had a fun day filming that scramble. I must have knocked the camera over at least twice running to the aircraft. The director wasn't best pleased.
Good days, I had forgotten all about that until you posted.
Thanks
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: People's Republic
Age: 68
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Claron,
Glad you enjoyed the vid. My reference to ugly mugs was more directed at the aircrew but if the cap fits etc
. I must have been on the sqn at the time but don't recall the filming. However I can remember a photo shoot for one of the aviation comics when we took their "reporter" flying.
Regards,
Vernon
Glad you enjoyed the vid. My reference to ugly mugs was more directed at the aircrew but if the cap fits etc
. I must have been on the sqn at the time but don't recall the filming. However I can remember a photo shoot for one of the aviation comics when we took their "reporter" flying.Regards,
Vernon
I adore Co Kerry, a beautiful place. It's just that Bishop's Court couldn't see that far. ORAC didn't post the whole key from my website - the blue line is the theoretical radar coverage at 30,000'. Red line is the UKADR boundary.