Well, TBH, a B757 could have done the job and carried a bigger load ;)

Salute!

I love that question about friendly airraft being painted by radar. Love it.

Up to me I would have told the "reporter" nope, they didn't even know we were there until the bombs and missiles hit........ next question.
++++++

Over at Tyler's blog, lotta tweets and intell being updated at good intervals:

The War Zone - The Drive
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gotta tellya, that looking at one of the targets destruction, that Allies must have super warheads if the Syrians shot down most of the missiles. I saw the long video from Syrian "Ministry of Truth", and only saw one "hit" by a Syrian missile and plenty of launches.

If they used SA-6 systems, or a more modern version that used doppler for guidance on the missile, then they should have engaged and shot down many cruise missiles.

Our Israeli students in the only group IAF sent had a vet or two from the Yom Kippur episode. They were fighter/attack pilots checking out in the Viper, circa mid to late 1980. The SA-6 was a beast and they said you could not get low enuf to defeat it. Nevertheless, they found two ways to defeat the thing and I employed one in the mid 80's at Red Flag to escape and hit the tgt. The easiest way was to taxi a tank up to the sucker and blow it to kingdom come. The other eay was to "beam" it, then get closer and blow it up yourself.

Bear in mind that the SA-6 shot down our F-117 in the Balkans. It may be old, but the sucker works. The biggie is the integration of the air defense system to pass on the tgt to the missile battery and so forth. I flew against the best IAD the world has seen, and it was not in the mideast.. The Vee had plenty of practice, as we flew hundreds of missions up north. I shudder to think of what our losses would have been if they had the SA-6 for the low folks and the SA-4 for the initial folks heading in.

Oh well, I just pray we won't let this thing escalate.

Gums sends...

https://www.facebook.com/aerospaceanalysis/

Israel raids Syrian air base

When the Syrian Arab Air Force T4 air base at Tiyas (near the city of Homs) came under attack before dawn on 9 April, Syria’s state TV immediately accused the United States of carrying out the attack. It was initially assumed that it had been mounted in retaliation for the widely reported chemical weapons attack two days earlier in Douma in the Eastern Ghouta region, the last rebel-held enclave in the vicinity of Damascus.

This was perhaps understandable. After a chemical weapons attack on the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun in April 2017, the US fired 59 Tomahawk cruise missiles at a Syrian military air base at Shayrat, which had been used to launch that attack.

Even on the day of the attack against Tiyas, after US and French denials of responsibility, Syria and Russia were soon blaming Israel for the attack. Rather than being a US response to the alleged chemical weapons attack, the air raid was thus part of a wider Israeli effort to counter and contain the Iranian military build-up in Syria. It was not even the first IDF/AF attack against the air base at Tiyas, which has been a particular irritant to Israel.

Israeli sources have said that Tiyas air base incorporates an Iranian military/Revolutionary Guard/Quds facility, and have alleged that the base has been used by Iranian forces to transfer advanced weapons to its Lebanese ally, the Shia militant group Hezbollah.

Tiyas is also believed to have been the launch site for the Iranian drone that made an incursion into Israel in the early hours of 10 February, prompting an IDF/AF attack on what was described as the “command-and-control centre from which Iran had launched the drone, at a Syrian air base near Palmyra.” An Israeli F-16I Sufa was shot down by heavy Syrian anti-aircraft fire, crashing in Northern Israel en route back to its base. Both crew ejected safely.

This was said to be the first Israeli combat aircraft lost to hostile fire in decades.

The weapons used during this attack (and a succession of follow up attacks) were said to have been Israel Military Industries (IMI) Delilah loitering air-launched cruise missiles, launched by ‪Israel Defence Force/Air Force F-16I Sufa and F-15I Ra’am tactical fighters. These 412-lb weapons have a 66-lb warhead and a 160 nautical mile range, compared to the heavier but shorter-ranged Rafael Popeye.‬

Initial reports suggested that about 20 missiles landed in and around T4, hitting and damaging the ‘maintenance section’ and other areas, destroying a number of drones and causing casualties among Syrian air force and Iranian personnel. It was claimed that the Syrian defences had shot down eight missiles (out of 20 or 28 fired).

Subsequently, estimates as to the size of the raid were scaled back. The Russian Defence Ministry said that two Israeli F-15s had carried out a guided missile air strike on Tiyas air base, launching eight missiles from Lebanese air space in the early hours of Monday, 9 April. Moscow and Damascus claimed that Syrian defences had shot down five of the eight missiles fired, the remaining three hitting the western part of the base – which is understood to be the Iranian enclave.

14 people were killed in the attack, and the Iranian Tasnim news agency said that seven Iranian military personnel had been killed. The Fars news agency said that three of the dead had been members of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, though this report was subsequently withdrawn without explanation.

Less than a week later, the US, UK and France mounted co-ordinated air strikes against Syrian targets in direct retaliation for the attack on Douma.

Sumb'dy had to provide cheese sandwiches for les Rafales et les Mirages, especially for the ones who appear to be reaching for the FBH. :}

US/UK/France

https://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/im...zah-before.jpg


https://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/im...rzah-after.jpg

Links -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/im...zah-before.jpg

https://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/im...rzah-after.jpg

They mustabin guilty.

We've got the photos to prove it and evryfink!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/im...rzah-after.jpg

It was an SA-3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/250th_...issile_Brigade

Both manned aircraft losses (F-117 and F-16) over Yugoslavia during 1999 were by SA-3s.

And the F-16 allegedly shot down by the SA-3 was flown by the current USAF Chief of Staff.

:p Egzacly.

Glad Rag,

I think you’ll find it in your sock draw, along with your sense of humor and an understanding of emojis :E. I was doing a little mild fishing for the lunatic fringe; Recce Guy, in this case. Regarding this inane comment -

Keep your friends close - and your enemy closer..... ;) ;)

More details from this Airforces Monthly article:

https://airforcesmonthly.keypublishi...o-back-at-war/

On the spook side, assets such as two Rivet Joints and a Combat Sent were in theater along with the usual VP and VQ P-8's and EP-3's. An RQ-4B drone out of Sigonella was on station for hours yesterday monitoring any reaction to the attacks:

Maybe it's me but I haven't heard a single word on the radio or TV congratulating the pilots as to their bravery........................

Heathrow Harry,

Than you obviously didn't listen to the Prime Ministers speech (On TV) following the raid when she did exactly that.

So I guess it's just you...

And WSOs.................

So, here we go again, assuming the quote reflects an official press release?
Quote: "The Tornados , which come under the command of 903 Expeditionary Air Wing at RAF Akrotiri, were escorted by four No 6 Squadron Typhoon FGR4s that conducted force combat air patrol (FORCAP) missions. Each Typhoon was armed with two AIM-132 Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (ASRAAMs) and two AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs). The Typhoons secured the airspace over the eastern Mediterranean Sea before, during and after the Tornados launched their Storm Shadows".
Apparently then, the Typhoons "escorted" the Tornadoes, providing FORCAP. It also seems they "secured" the Eastern Med airspace. Very interesting. Does this mean that the 4 Typhoon were considered capable of "securing" the airspace in the face of the Russian assets in theatre or, just against the Syrian AD?

OAP

She would say that wouldn't she................ She's not important and no one listens to her - even in Cabinet

It's the rest of the UK that I was thinking of..................... not a peep :(:(:(

OAP,

I think you’re being a bit naive by expecting questions such as yours (‘can Typhoons operate in the face of S400?’) to be answered in the public domain. Generically, I would expect a CAP to have been placed to deter Syrian or Russian ac from making westbound excursions that might have threatened the Tornados at the easternmost point of their routes (which wouldn’t have been very far east in any case so the CAP could easily have been filling a ‘detached escort’ function overhead Akrotiri). This would also have deterred any potential threat to Akrotiri itself. While the Tornados would have been able to fly under the S400 radar horizon, that wouldn’t have been an option for an effective CAP. As such I don’t think we can infer anything about the Typhoon’s capability or tactics from the publicly-available information - exactly as it should be!

The new medja 'phrase du jour' is 'fire and forget'. They obviously feel plaudits for that sort of action are unnecessary...

So the accounting for missile shoot-down seems to me to be:
Syrians say: 17 shot down
Russians say: 71 shot down
US says: 0 shot down

I wonder what the real figure is?

hoss183, back in Gulf War One (the honest one):

:hmm:

So did the Russians switch their S400s to 'standby' or was it done for them?
mmitch.

Why fire at all? Maybe switch a couple of tracking radars on to see if they work but otherwise why give up the intelligence - and to save Assad a bit of local redevelopment.... would be silly

With so many 'data sniffers' around they probably kept them switched off. Not much to gain but a lot to lose. (Gaining wavelength and scan patterns of the S-400 would be invaluable and far exceed the value of the damage done to some Syrian Brick Houses- I would dare to say that knowing that an S-400 is stationed there is probably the extra price and a good additional motivation for executing and announcing the strike)

I suspect the behind the scenes diplomacy to avoid WW3 was: 'We wont target any Russian bases or assets, leave us alone and we will do likewise'

Yup, General Goldfein’s ‘triple nickle’ F-16CG sits in Belgrade aircraft museum afterbeing schwacked by a SA-3. Thankfully he was picked up almost immediately by CSAR under significant gunfire. The good General allegedly buys the pilots and PJs a good bottle of malt each year :ok:

https://thevelvetrocket.files.wordpr...own-serbia.jpg

Nope Captain Scott O'Grady left active duty into the AFRC not too long after his service at Aviano and continued to fly in the AFRC.

Subsequently I read he went into politics.

cheers

In reality, it is unlikely that anyone commenting on this site knows all the tactics and equipment that were used. :ok: However, something that I assume can be deduced is that, the Russian forces really were held weapons tight and, the coalition Politicians and players knew that before launching the mission. Overall, I am very pleased to see that this was a successful mission and, some level of cooperation was achieved. :D

OAP

Nope, that was not in 1999. Scott O’Grady was shot down by a SA-6 near Banja Luka in 1995 - the same SA-6 that had been looking at me a few days before! :eek:

Here is a cracking article in the Daily Mirror about Corbyn’s apparent ill-judged ramblings:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...mpression=true

Also note the Tornado GR4s were carrying 2 x AIM-132 ASRAAM.

Salute!

Thanks, TEEEEJ, I had confused Scott's shootdown with Goldein's and flata$$$ blew my memory of the 117. And TNX, B Word for clearing up the dates.

Gen Goldfein was indeed shot down in 1999 and like the Nighthawk, by a modified SA-3 system and really good operators.

I never saw a SA-3 at Red Flag, but they still had SA-6 threat sites, as I described. During Linebacker there was concern that the Vee were fielding the SA-3 and we saw strong india band strobes on our RHAW gear, but no missiles. The theory that developed postulated they were trying to use the india band for defeating our jammers and chaff corridors. Saw some SA-2 missiles, but we defeated them.

Gums sends...

Belgrade aerospace museum is well worth a visit, some real gems there. Its right next to the airport, down a back street.

Not something you hear very often. :}

A true Multi-Role Combat Aircraft! :ok:

There seems to be an interesting difference between Russia/Syria and coalition partners claims on missile losses. Russia seem to be claiming 70 odd losses and coalition claim none. :confused: It seems that, surprisingly, the Donald might be closer to the true news, rather than the fake news. I wonder if we will see some more info today?

OAP

This is the question of my real interest, too. "None" is definitely a propaganda for house wives, 70 (of 103-105) looks a bit unrealistic for me, either. I would expect 30-40% of intercepted cruise missiles.
However, they (the Syrians) knew the time, the direction (except maybe for the one where B-1B were shooting from), there were no anti-SAM missiles used prior to the attack.


Now the burden of proof is on the Syrian side. They have access to debris, holes on the ground and in buildings, etc. However, when a Tomahawk is intercepted by BuK or Pantzyr rocket, the result might be close to dust...


I am not sure we will see 100% convincing evidences and all sides will remain with their opinions.

Astonishing pair of pictures on the front of today's "Times" Before and after of the Barzeh research centre. The site is totally destroyed, but it looks as if the perimeter fence might still be standing. The trees lining the road are still there. Now that's precision.

This is strange indeed and seems not to fit the announced numbers. More than 15 Tomahawk per building (equivalent of 6-7 tons of serious, not improvised, explosives) would eliminate everything around, as there were not underground explosions - buildings "are ordinary civilian boxes". This only means that not all 100+ missiles hit them, but much less.

For those really interested, here are recent numbers from Russian MOD per SAM complex used:

Pantzyr: 25 missiles fired, 23 targets hit
Buk: 29 and 24
Osa: 11 and 5
C-125: 13 and 5
Strela-10: 5 and 3
Kvadrat: 21 and 11
C-200: 8 and 0

C-200 (SA-5 in NATO classification) is the main loser and this is not a surprise. It was designed (in early 60's) to deal mainly wih airplanes, and Syrian crews were probably not enough trained to work on CM.

Source in Russian:
??????????: ????????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? - ????? ? ??? - ????

A_Van.

I presume you know the English saying "A picture is worth a thousand words"?

I do. Russian equivalent could be straightforwardly translated as "single view is better that 10 hearings".

As for SAM performance, these are not my numbers and I am not 100% sure they are correct (but anyway seem to be more close to reality than "0" in Trump's and May's twits).

I am just sharing what is announced here. Not by journalists, but by people who should bear at least some responsibility for what they are saying.
Not sure British media would copy this summary from the Russian MoD official. And for those interested hearing all views this might be of interest.