The UK should just surplus their whole "military" as irrelevant and rely on the French to protect them.

There are times that someone needs to go downtown to punish slaughter of innocents even if it is to send a message that they need to insure no one can use their WMDs without paying a price.

The Sultan

Personally I feel

Milliband is doing it for political reasons , it gives him the perfect chance to say ( come the next election ) we learnt from Iraq and refused to go down the BLair route, thus in one stroke they look like the good guys that are listening to the electorate and finally casting off some of the stigma of Iraq that has been hanging around their necks like excessive baggage. It also upsurps Cameron and makes him look like Son of BLiar, thus shifting the emphasis onto him, especially if it all goes pear shaped like it probably will.
Cameron and Hague are also coming over as looking indecisive with the frequent changes of tact as the proverbial carpet keeps getting pulled out from under them.

The Sultan:

You seem to feel strongly about this and I applaud that. Can we therefore assume that, if I buy your rifle, ammunition and basic needs you will blaze a trail ahead of the rest of us or are you just having a bleeding heart moment that, should you ever actually be expected to bleed, you will weasel your way out of.

No response required, we all know your "do something to help them quickly but don't interrupt my latte when you do" type.

AA - cheap shot.
The guy was just making a point.
Some of us civilians would have dearly loved to serve - but may not have been able to for various reasons.
In my case - 14 prism dioptres of esophoria meant I couldn't fly commercially or in the military. Where possible many of us turn up to the dawn parades, say thank you, support those of you in uniform and remind our kids of how important the armed forces are.
And we watch videos like this Ian Pannell piece here on an alleged incendiary bomb hit from fast jet on a Syrian school - to always remember what wars are like.

If we do wind up sending brave young men and women into battle over this....in time Sultan will insult their service as he has so many times in the past.....and has been warned about doing several times. Matter of fact....he had a couple of vacations from here over that kind of conduct as I recall.

My apologies then if that's the case.
I wasn't aware of that history and I stand corrected.

You can't get more popular opinion than on a local radio phone in. The callers were moderate and argued logically (it was before pub rise).

There was the odd Christian that thought we should step in to stop the slaughter of the innocents but the majority, while repressing sadness, took the view that it should not be the UK as one of the World police yet again.

Cameron and Hague failed to get the vote partly because they did not convince Parliament that they could control the resulting conflict.
This is the point that all politicians fail on.
Who would have predicted that an assassination in the Balkans would lead to the deaths of 15 million people in Europe?
Obama made a loose statement on 'red lines' and he must now sort his own problems out and not drag us in as well.
Thank heavens that Parliament has shown some mettle at last.

Words are interesting. Being a 'policeman' is bad and watching someone getting beaten up in an alley is good as long as one is sad about it and says one cares. One might as well admit that one doesn't really care very much.

I suppose my view on all this is coloured by being from Zimbabwe and I admit that I'm a latte sipping civilian.

t, a New York policeman may feel very sad watching a video of someone getting beaten up in a different State and probably really does care, but is not about to jump in his patrol car and high tail it there.

The point that most of here hold is that we should not be a de facto world policeman. The UN has not appointed us as such so we have no rights to act as such.

While you, as a latte sipping civilian, (whatever that is) seem to both care and believe in intervention, many or your tea drinking compatriots are not.

Personally I consider we should get involved, but not with the current shaddow of a military force we now have.

If we are to watch the slaughter of the innocents, it is the fault of the asset strippers who have reduced our armed forces to the level where we cannot commit.

Listening to the post-mortem of the vote on the radio this morning, mythoughts turned from the effect this will have on the politicians (like I care)and on future events in Syria to the effect this will have on the future of ourarmed forces. If we now live in an era when, according to commentatorsthis morning, public and political opinion is so fervently against the UK’smilitary involvement in anything outside of our own territorial waters (or,perhaps the UK ADR) I wonder how long it will be until someone starts to reflecteven more seriously on the need to spend £33.8Bn on deployable forces.

I’m assuming that no one is questioning the need for effective self-defence (well, maybe George Galloway),but it’s hard to ignore the public reluctance to engage militarily in any othercapacity in the wake of Iraq and Afghanistan. There was reasonable support for a limited involvement in Libya, but noone wants another Vietnam.

So given that, we may now find it much more difficult to justify therequirement for a sizeable offensive capability. What, for example, is the point of us buying intoa platform such as F-35, ships such as the new carriers, thousands ofdeployable troops and all their gear when it seems that money is needed forbenefits, schools, the NHS and HS2?

Any thoughts?

About time all MPs children aged 18 and over had to do military service as a prerequisite when holding office, maybe we would get a more thought through approach to war like policy. If the Royal Family can participate fully in the military and on operations why can not politician’s kids? How many currently populating the services?
We don’t have the man power or the resources to become involved in this issue no matter how distressing recent events have been, and what did we do in Rwanda to stop the slaughter?
It would also be interesting to see the AAR assets of the RAF cope with towlines in the Region if we could provide any.

AA wrote:

Puma Crewman- not so daft eh?

Nobody (sane) likes what is happening there. But you have to toss a coin to decide who the least nutty side is in this, and the outcome will be exactly as AA describes. Let the Arab League sort it out; or Israel when they get pissed off enough. Ask yourself why the former IS NOT acting to sort it out- and be led by the answer.

CG

We followed America's led and refused to acknowledge that it was genocide. Clint has said more recently that it was one of his biggest regrets that he did not intervene. One might think cynically that he could say that once he was out of office.

The Russians had the size of it when they declared they had Peace Making Forces not Peace Keeping Forces.

Defence policy has never really featured in Government manifestos. Yes, we declared a Peace Dividend, yes, they declared there would be a Strategic Defence Review (and another one) but what about a very basic policy.

Does Britain want a Peace Making Force or a Peace Keeping Force?

In FI, GW1 and GW2, we clearly employed Peace Making Force. Post GW2 and in Afg the role has been largely Peace Keeping, albeit a robust form of Peace Keeping.

Translate that to Syria today and we would have to commit a force that has largely been in a Peace Keeping role for the past 10 years. Would it fit?

Someone had to keep the locals out of the way whilst Bush and his cronies plundered the oil and the the best bits of Baghdad real estate.

CM & JR

I totally agree with your points. Those who have been so quick to emasculate the Armed Forces should consider the speed with which our 'capability gaps' have been highlighted to the rest of the world and left us found wanting. We are viewed as being an embuggerance to any military foray as we can never achieve without the aid of superior forces.

Regrettably, any credibility the UK may have had has evaporated in a puff of party political hot air. The Emperor's new clothes have long gone.:(

I've surprised myself.

I actually agree with what the politicians have decided (whatever their motivation) If someone gives me a drink when I'm thirsty, just to make themselves feel better, I still get the drink.

This country does not need another war. Shouldn't even be in the sandpit now.

Also, 'we' the nominally Christian 'West' can't be seen piling in to 'murder' good Muslims - they're busy blowing each other away. Sunni vs Shiite or vice versa - let them get on with it. Before the bleeding hearts give it 'what about the kids?', it didn't bother us overmuch in WW2 when each side was happy to bomb cities. It's utterly tragic, but it won't go away if we pile in to shore up tottering politicians' careers.

I truly believe that their is enough resource in the Middle East to sort their own **** out. WE are not the world's policemen despite what our 'special' allies seem to think. The billions spent in the Sandpits (various) could have paid for a lot of the infrastructure that's being dismantled for lack of funds.

NIMBY - bet your ass.

Glad the MPs have done what most people in the country want (and most people actually serving in our armed forces want too), and that is not to get involved unless its absolutely proven without question who did what. I would like to see one year of my life where NO British serviceman has been put in danger in a conflinct or on an operation that really has little or no reason in justification of defence of this country. Strong capable defence forces to deter and use if required yes, not to throw at every corner of the middle east for political smarty points..

So, to paraphrase, you're saying "It's just w*g on w*g - who gives a $hit?"

:hmm:

At last a house of commons with some common sense. They thwarted the ambitions of Cameron and his poodle Foreign Secretary to put more British military lives at stake for no benefit to Britain.You would be hard pressed to find any ordinary citizens who would be willing to sacrifice one British soldiers life for Syria.After the wonderful results of intervention in Afghanistan,Iraq and Libya is our Prime Minister really that dim that he does not know when to come in from the rain.As an aside - how many of those MPs that voted for military action have sons or daughters in the armed forces? We are cutting back on funding for the poorest in our society yet Mr Cameron wants to fire cruise missiles at a million dollars per copy at the Syrians - I think he needs a rapid change of priorities.The good thing that comes from this is that his chances of being the next Prime Minister are about zero.

It could have been taken out of the Overseas Aid Budget :E


..

Not many moons ago I was witness to some pretty horrific 'atrocities' over in Bosnia - a similar situation to the Syrian tribal disaster we see unfolding. The UN were as impotent as they currently are - but until someone with big clanging cajoles takes charge of that organisation we will continue to have all this dreadful 'posturing' by Obama, Cameron, Hague etc. every time some despot comes under a bit of 'popular' pressure.

I really hope this will be a step change in the current British military crusade mentality - and yes, if we can now scale down our military inventory to reflect our new 'policy' then great - we might save some cash to spend on the NHS and win a few more Eurovision Song Contests!

I just saw a piece on RT saying that neither Jordon, Iraq or Egypt will allow military action against Syria to be launched from bases in their nations or over flights of their territory.

My faith in MPs has been restored a little, I am proud of this country for not doing anything. I hope the French people can stop Hollander and the American people can stop Obama.

Even though Labour did the right thing, what a bunch of hypocrites they are. I suppose one can say they went with public opinion which is a good thing. But I don't like them and never will. Good seeing the look on some of the Tory faces though, ha ha!

Me thinks that we had already done that :ugh::ugh:

the current British Politians' military crusade mentality

Never thought I would see the day when MP's actually did something right...for whatever reason.
'Call me Dave' is well out of touch with popular opinion.

Yep - shame they didn't have the moral conviction to do the same 10 years or so ago.

America has got itself in a proper tangle over this. I can quite imagine the conversations with their Sunni allies in the ME "So you overthrew the Iraqi regime for allegedly possessing WMD, and supported the overthrow of Gaddafi who was just about to start the industrial slaughter of his people, yet in Syria, where Assad is flagrantly using WMD and killing his people in their 10s of thousands, you decide to what, exactly?" The ghosts of of previous justifications loom large...

We'd need to get the UN going again. If it can be blocked all the time it's useless. Bring back diplomacy for your daily dictator business and keep the military as a true last option.

A tad subjective. Has anyone seen concrete evidence that Assad is using WMD (rather than the possibility that it was the FSA) and that "his" WMD are killing people in "their 10s of thousands"?

Whatever your feelings about victories for democracy etc there isn't any cause whatsoever to feel happy. Completely innocent non-radical people are going to be killed and one of two awful choices will eventually win by attrition because they are the only ones who have backers.

If this level of evidence was available 10+ years ago, do you think the US et al would have leapt upon it, even if there was even a degree of uncertainty? Its far more compelling than anything they/we came up with at that time.

BTW I said 'and' not 'to' i.e. making the connection between Iraq and Libya.

Just wondering why Saudi just doesn't just march on in to Syria, which the help of the gulf states? They didn't hesitate when Bahrain looked like it was going to wobble. Bunch of weeners if you ask me, scared of a fight - WTF did they buy all that shiny kit for?

Editted to add: surely they could collectively fund a western private military endeavor, backed by their air forces. I'm sure the likes of Aegis, KBR etc would happily oblige.

Because the uniforms look good!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hanoijane

You may well consider him [Galloway] to be so, but if you'd followed his advice you wouldn't have been part of the stunningly successful Iraq adventure, would you?

---

If we had followed anything he said, we’d have had British troops disobeying orders and foreign fighters rising up against British Forces in Iraq.
You want me to follow advice from someone who is reported to have said:

“I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life.”

"Hezbollah has never been a terrorist organization!"

That a suicide bomb attack on the British Prime Minister“would be morally justified.”

To Saddam Hussein “Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability”.

Of Assad, “For me he is the last Arab ruler, and Syria is the last Arab country”.

I think I’ll seek council otherwhere.

We have shed enough blood in the name of Arab/Islamic democracy and our leaders have not yet fathomed out the fact that what exists is not a political problem which can be solved by political plus military means. The problem is CULTURE - whoever rules in Damascus will have come from the same brutal sectarian,tribal background as the previous incumbent.After about 20 years in the M.E.I came to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can be done by outsiders short of killing off the whole population and starting again.It will take generations to make a difference,leave the buggers to get on with it.

MPs voted under the voice of the British Public the news tells us?

Well, after all the unwanted immigration caused by the last wretched Labour lot, one wonders 'who' that great British Public now is? We have been infected with European queasiness for conflict by allowing an open borders policy. This is just the start of the slow erosion of the British way of life just to appease politicians' egotistical whims...

Lets write a letter to Syria telling them we are very very cross. Seems to be all we are capable of.
Someone remind me how much oil Syria produces for the world market?

How very inconvenient this democracy business is, Grimweasel!