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-   -   PAS Offer and FRI's? (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/506876-pas-offer-fris.html)

Spiro 1st Feb 2013 23:06

PAS Offer and FRI's?
Soooooooo....having been offered PA this year can any of you helpful people out there tell me if PAS still comes with the FRI? Tried numerous searches of the AFPRB reports and find no mention of it recently. Last time it was mentioned was 2010 report.

Also, anybody have a link to the ToC's for PA handy, PM me please as life changing decisions for me and her indoors need to be made!


Jambo Jet 1st Feb 2013 23:21

I dont think PA comes with an FRI.

I do think that if you have served up to your 16/38 point right now and choose to remain in service (up until 1 Apr 13 this year) you can apply for an FRI and the associated ROS. Beyond that I do not know.

PA does come with a 5 yr ROS and a forfeit of the right to PVR

theboywide 1st Feb 2013 23:38

I'm not so sure. Thought that if you accept PAS
and an FRI came in before your 16/38 point that you were eligible but I'd love to get mannings take on it?

By all respects it sounds like the PAS offers were given out to lots of people today.

Arty Fufkin 1st Feb 2013 23:48

No FRI anymore.

If you accept the PA offer, your exit date is instantly moved to your 55th birthday. Therefore, to leave before 55 you must PVR and in doing so sacrifice about 10% of any pension rights you would have otherwise been entitled to.
Additionaly, your acceptance of PA ties you in to a non-negotiable 5year ROS from your original 16/38 point, not date of acceptance, despite not actually knowing under what terms of service (regarding pensions at least) you will be under post 2015. That same commitment used to be worth 80k under FRI 3.

The draw would be the knowledge that you won't be kicked out at the end of your existing engagement.That aside, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Neither it would seem would most of the recipients of PA offers.

Good luck.

iRaven 2nd Feb 2013 00:01

Yup, as Arty says, watch out for 2015 - new pension (FAFPS) and new terms of service (NEM) may make PAS a far worse deal than it was in its heyday.

The PAS deal with AFPS05 was scandelous and completely screwed up the rank/remuneration structure. You had Flt Lts retiring on Gp Capt equivalent pensions and then others that had advanced to Sqn Ldr and then Wg Cdr retiring on less. The last bits of big FRI was reserved to entice aircrew who got promoted and to make them stay in past 16/38. If PAS is not such a good deal under the new pension scheme (FAFPS) then the problem will be sorted.

"Buyer beware" is all I can say. :eek:

sargs 2nd Feb 2013 01:38

The PAS deal with AFPS05 was scandelous...
By this I presume you weren't PAS, and/or AFPS05? I'm both, and it's not scandalous, it's a fair reward for 35 years dedicated service as a Professional Aviator with only two promotions in that time....

just another jocky 2nd Feb 2013 07:37

Originally Posted by sargs
By this I presume you weren't PAS, and/or AFPS05? I'm both, and it's not scandalous, it's a fair reward for 35 years dedicated service as a Professional Aviator with only two promotions in that time....

Wot e sed! :E

bob9 2nd Feb 2013 08:25

FRI3 for SO2 and 3 aircrew is in place till 31 Mar 13. Your career manager can tell you if you are eligible or not. After that it is a simple form that needs to be filled out and then returned to Manning. 100K for SO2 and 80K for SO3(Pre tax). Hope that helps:)

Arty Fufkin 2nd Feb 2013 09:17


You are quite correct, however:

The FRI must be paid by March. If your current exit date is after March you will not get a FRI. I should have been clearer, but I was assuming that anyone who is receiving a PA offer for the first time is well over a year away from going onto the scheme. Hence no FRI.

As I said before, I believe the uptake of PA offers is extremely low because there seems to be very little tangible benefit to committing open endedly to another 5 years. Make that 7 if you accept the offer 2years before your IPP. No cash up front and potentialy no extra pension benefits until way into the future. If indeed there are any PA pension benefits.

Having said that, I think I'd accept the offer if:

I had some very serious doubts about my employability outside.

I really really loved the RAF and wouldn't consider working for anyone else.

I haven't met many who fall into the latter cattegory. As for the former, I guess the only people accepting PA offers are WSOs. If they're not, are you really retaing the highest calibre of individual? If the training pipeline is closed and no one stays on to fly past their IPP, I can foresee a big pilot shortfall in the next 5 years. Maybe there will be a FRI 4 in about 2015?

Never mind, I'm sure it'll be fine.

Uncle Ginsters 2nd Feb 2013 09:36

So, it seems after the extremely low uptake due to the poor terms of last year's offer, Manning have decide to <drum-roll please> offer exactly the same again, but to more people :ugh::oh:

Lima Juliet 2nd Feb 2013 10:07

By this I presume you weren't PAS, and/or AFPS05? I'm both, and it's not scandalous, it's a fair reward for 35 years dedicated service as a Professional Aviator with only two promotions in that time...
Let's just dissect this for iRaven's benefit.

"It's a fair reward for 35 years of dedicated service" - there are plenty of Service people that do 35 years of dedicated service and get only half the amount at 55; I suspect they would not think it is "fair"!

"as a Professional Aviator with only two promotions in that time..." - so you've stayed doing what you love doing, you're probably 'above average' (just like the aircrew that get promoted to Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr but have had to do a staff job inbetween), you're probably 'welded' to your MOB for many years for stability and you haven't had to do any of the other 'nause' because you've declared your hand that you don't want the extra stress and responsibility of promotion by staying PAS?

I envy you my friend, as you have landed 'the deal of the century'! However, I also believe that the original scheme was poorly thought through and could be described as "scandelous" by many not in the scheme. I suspect that the golden age of PAS will draw to a close by 2015 as it is unaffordable and also it has fed the need for 100k SO2 FRIs that are also unaffordable.

Enjoy what you've secured for yourself - you were in the right place at the right time. :ok:


Biggus 2nd Feb 2013 10:26

Scandalous is a very emotive word to use - over generous might be a better choice. It was an official system introduced by the MOD, not some sort of con. Anyone who took up the offer should be deemed to have been fortunate - not in any way appear to be criminalized as a result.

Various ground ranks/trades, who are also seeing considerable experience leaving, often on compulsory redundancy, might consider the whole issue of paying FRIs to aircrew (in addition to receiving flying pay, or generous PA spine pay) to "continue doing what they love doing" scandalous....?

I guess like most things in life, it's all a matter of perspective.

isaneng 2nd Feb 2013 11:34

Just a heads up, couple of our chaps took the PAS & FRI last year. I believe they got an unexpected tax bill, as it took their annual income above the next level, affecting their basic income tax threshold. I'm sure some of our resident experts can explain properly!

sargs 2nd Feb 2013 19:21

Let me just explain, for Leon Jabachjabicz benefit.

It's a fair reward for what I have done in my career. The other people? Well, that I would regard as unfair; if they've worked as hard and as loyally as me, they deserve it too.

Yes, I've stayed doing what I love - but that's the point. I joined to do what I do, and I'm very good at it - as you suspect, I'm "above average" in my present role and all the roles I've had before - all 35 years of them. That's a good thing for the Service and a good thing for the taxpayer, and that's why I deserve the remuneration I get.

Yes, I have landed the "deal of the century", but that doesn't mean I should warrant your (or iRavens) opprobrium - perhaps you should examine everybody else's pay scale and critique that. You could instead regard it as a rare flash of recognition in an otherwise uninspired series of pay reviews.

Yes, I am going to enjoy what I've "secured" myself - whilst I was "in the right place at the right time" it's nothing less than I deserve - the fact that others, who may deserve it just as much as I, don't get it is not down to me. I'm sorry for them, but instead of coming into this thread and having a go at me and others like me, perhaps you may wish to redirect your energies to other threads where a lack of a suitable reward to Servicemen generally is a hot topic.

Lima Juliet 2nd Feb 2013 19:56


I agree that there are deserving cases, but then there are other PAS individuals who are pretty uninspirational and are going to get paid a mahoosive pension. The Spec Aircrew scheme worked well, was popular, and I don't know why the RAF decided to instigate PAS and AFPS05 and create such a large chasm between PAS and 'the general list' (whatever it is called these days). That has lead to the 100k FRI for SO2s being offered, which has further drained resources.

I'm not having a go at you Sargs, me old, it's just the system that created the monster that is called PAS and AFPS05. It has created an expectation for a Flt Lt Pilot to earn up to 72.5k per year, with all the other entitlements like CEA (~15k/year), HTD (up to ~3k per year), free health care, cheap quarters, etc.., etc... Then it is topped off by a pension at age 55 of ~35k+. I just don't see why anyone would press for promotion under that system and why they had to effectively 'bribe' individuals to take Sqn Ldr promotion with the offer of 100k at their immediate pension point as an FRI.

Biggus, I agree, "scandelous" is a strong word, but when we pay our Army privates <20k per year to get their arses shot at in Afghanistan, how can we justify not being slightly emotive about it?

Again, this is not a personal attack on Sargs, it is my personal opinion on a system that to me has been devisive against all the other branches. I had FRI 1 and FRI 2 and I was very grateful, but I do feel embarrassed if the subject is raised in front of fellow officers (such as engineers, RAFP, RAF Regt, etc...) who have not been so fortunate, but have, in my opinion, been just as deserving.

LJ :ok:

Lima Juliet 2nd Feb 2013 20:00


Leon was one of my studes several years ago, and though his attitude far outdid his ability he got through with the next course that I had nothing to do with
Mate, never failed a course in my whole career - do explain how I "got through with the next course" :ok:

Just This Once... 2nd Feb 2013 20:16

EGDG, I've known Leon for over 20 years so your next post needs to be phenomenally good.

Uncle Ginsters 2nd Feb 2013 20:27

The trouble with the timing and direction of previous FRIs is that, in most cases, they were paid to those who were already staying in, hence the 'embarrassment' of some of those in Leon's position.

I think if a similar FRI were to be offered now to Flt Lts then it could tip the balance for many of those genuinely considering leaving...

Manning appear concerned...all of the Oxonian Sqn's were asked this week to provide stats on percentages of ATPL-equipped or planned pilots. The numbers are pretty high on my Sqn and doubtless so elsewhere.

Lima Juliet 2nd Feb 2013 20:37

Uncle G

The FRI2 kept me in at 16/38, but the FRI1 was a complete gift! Either way, no one begged me to stay when I PVR'd 5 years later! :ok:

high spirits 2nd Feb 2013 20:47

Is it true they have delayed the Sqn Ldr PAS board till march? Is this to see how many take up on Flt Lt board, or am I reading too much into it?

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