Back to my comments, I stand by them (even if I had sunk a few IPAs before typing). I remember when "Offo" came and briefed everyone on PAS and some of us stared in disbelief. We new it was going to be devisive, even amongst the aircrew cadre (both Spec Aircrew and the career minded). It would create a system where aircrew of similar age, capability, performance and experience could earn vastly different wages and pensions - fair, it was not! (in my best Yoda voice).

Ever since it came in, it has created "have's and have nots" and for every person it seemed "fair" to there was another who thought it unfair.

I think it will be hard to justify PAS on its current terms in future now that jobs in the airlines are no longer guaranteed thanks to the loss of bridging within CAP804. That's not my sour-grapes speaking, but just how it appears to be shaping up.

iRaven

Yes but different skills and that's what made it fair and non-devisive.

I've got to agree, although it's not just the loss of bridging, it's the expectation by the airlines that their first officers will be spotty oiks straight out of school. Speaking from a FJ pilot perspective, an second career with the airlines appears to be very much harder to achieve now than, say, 10-15 years ago. Those of my acquaintances who have done it have all had wives with significant income to keep the family afloat during the 'lean' early years, and have had the benefit of influential contacts within airlines. I think there are far more FJ people looking away from flying for their second career than was the case before. Things should be different for the multi-engine crowd, assuming any value is placed on their experience....

As for PA / AFPS 05, one thing about it that grips my sh*t is when 'average' front-line people qualify on the basis of 'above-average' performances on instructional tours, and then spend the majority of their time as PA back on the front-line and unable to contribute in the capacity intended by the scheme. When we do get lucky and get a PA QWI or EWI, they really are worth the money.

Many thanks for the info guys, off to mull things over. Civvie street beckons though I reckon.

Does this round of PA offer service to 55 or 60? What with the new pension not paying out until 60…

von K

Von K

You make a good point. There is supposed to be a mechanism to 'de-rate' the pension sums for those that retire early before 60 under some old terms of service - but the detail of that is yet to come (the term is "actuarially reduce " I believe?). I suspect we won't know until the New Employment Model (NEM) is published and, for some, it will probably be too late to do anything about...

For those needing to make a decision now they are simply in the "wrong place at the wrong time". Just like those Spec Aircrew types that chose not to go to PAS and AFPS05 when the schemes started up ~10 years ago...:sad:

LJ

PS - Here is link to the following quote: Future Armed Forces Pension Scheme

Leon you said.....

" it's just the system that created the monster that is called PAS and AFPS05. It has created an expectation for a Flt Lt Pilot to earn up to £72.5k per year"

Your numbers are a bit shy its more like 80k with PA level 35.

Cheers

Flt lt can't get to level 35 now without getting promoted to Sqn Ldr.

No bucks, no buck rogers.

The current aviation industry jobs shortage will resolve itself. It's quite simple, want to keep hold of the most experienced, best trained aircrew? It costs. If the government wants to continue its forrays abroad and retain the experience in order to do so, they better put their hands in their pockets.

As the 'credit' available under part O is so pathetic, my feeling is that whereas the previous scheme might have retained a few experienced pilots until they reached the 2000TT/1500PIC point, the new scheme will simply encourage people to think "What the hell is the point of staying in?" and to pull the B&Y.

If that's proving to be the case, well, I told you so!

Looking through some Best Buy annuities online, it seems if you buy an annuity at 60 instead of 65 (with the same size pension pot), you get about 12-15% less per annum (index-linked, Mrs gets some if you croak etc). Very rough and ready, but does anyone know if that's what 'actuarially fair' might actually mean?

I'm interested in all this because I'm PA in to 55, hoping to be able to go on to 60, but Manning wouldn't offer it last year because I'm too young (45). Was hoping that 60 was the new 'lifer' age…

von K

Critical_Al, a familiar set of questions for many in the coming weeks.

Pensions: there's chat of the calculator being online in March
FRI: Nothing heard - doubtful if there's anything allied to this PA offer.
PAS Terms: I'm told they'll be sent out this week but don't expect to be spoon-fed any small-print.

Most of the replies so far seem to be looking at the 38/16 point (or 40 for some?), but my question is this:

If you are past 38/16 and have decided that you won't take your 44 option why wouldn't you accept PAS? As far as I can see:

1. Pay is better (top rate PAS > top rate SO2 + top rate FP).
2. Pension is better. I realise that the change in 2015 might not necessarily make this true (by any significant amount), but when a new scheme comes in I would rather be on 75k basic than 55k basic + 20k FP. You won't be worse off!
3. PAS no longer has any impact on career progression (manning promised, so it must be true).

Seems too good to be true so what am I missing?

..that at age 94 you're too old?! :=

and don't forget, just because they offer PAS and you accept, doesn't stop the redundancy axe falling on you if needed in the future... (SDSR2015?) - make hay while the sun shines i.e. get a SIPP going and add enough to recoup the extra tax you'll be paying at 40% - I'm glad I did!!!

Remind me how many PA Sqn Ldrs are looking at ground tours in the foreseeable future?

MM4, I think your view of PAS is out of date, certainly in the FJ world. The PAS guys are no longer the couple of battle scarred veterans sitting in the corner of the crewroom smelling of wee [although I am sure some of those characters are still out there]. PAS is now being used as a far broader manning lever to retain experience, primarily in ground tours.

New PAS officers have also not narrowed their career horizons - they get considered at every board on their merits, with their PAS status having absolutely no bearing on promotion. Of course if your OJAR says "well above average and happy to fly the Grob in a Sqn Ldr or Flt Lt role until he keels over" then you won't get promoted, but the PAS is irrelevant, it is what you do (and aspire to do) that matters.

This is a relatively recent change and not the way the FAA still do it so some on here may be out of date (out of touch? :}). Bottom line is the RAF needs to fill a lot of SO2 ground jobs and relatively few flying jobs. It also has plenty of Flt Lts to fill Flt Lt flying posts, so PAS these days is more likely to mean a desk for life. :(

Using PAS Sqn Ldrs in desk jobs is also "scandelous" IMHO - for every 9 top-rate PAS Sqn Ldrs in the same jobs, we could have 10 career/exec stream top-rate Sqn Ldrs on full flying pay. Basically it is about £7k difference between the two. Therefore, if we are sending lots of PAS guys to desk jobs we could be wasting 10% of our pay bill in some areas if they are 100% manned by PAS. :eek:

Once again, I don't begrudge the individual on a current PAS deal, but I don't think that it should continue for new entries when we have a chance to change it. It's too expensive, it's devisive and in my experience it does not encourage ambition in some (and I stress "some").

They would do well to go back to the old Specialist Aircrew path - it worked, there were plenty wanting to do it and I have no idea why they f^cked with it...

LJ

I think the problem is that noone wants to do the desk jobs. So many leave now at Flt Lt or after their flt cdr job as a Sqn Ldr that the desk jobs just can't be filled, so manning need some way to retain more people and PAS (and occasionally FRI) is the way it is done. I'm not sure how else you could do it.

LJ

Agreed. Pretty sure PAS Sqn Ldrs don't want to be doing desk jobs but the powers that be keep saying that PAS dosent allow you to remain flying, wish it did!

TLP

You may well be right, retention is the main issue. But when you're skint and have no money, then PAS and FRI is not the answer either! Also, for some, it wouldn't matter what you paid, they're off and that's that.

I know that if a Sqn Ldr doesn't pick up to Wg Cdr after a strong ground tour and Flt Cdr tour, then they are hard to retain. Also, the fact that your mate who is PAS and is earning up to £7k more doesn't help!

LJ