Operational flying in GW1
 

Question: Why hasn't there been more literature published by crew regarding operational flying in GW1?

Cheers! AR1

Not being permitted to disclose information iaw the Official Secrets Act?

Any particular article/book would likely be very limited in its scope as we all only had a little part to play in the overall op. Those higher up the food chain who had a grander perspective would lack the detail perhaps.

I have often wondered, however, why there haven't been more publications on a period that involved so many members of the armed forces and had repurcussions down the years for so many RAF.

A. Still a residual feeling that our much vaunted under the radar airfield denial strategy turned out to be wrong

B. Not much for the fighter jockeys to do - carting ordnance around isn't sexy

When the 'boys' were streaming northbound over the border both in the air and on the ground, I had the good fortune to be heading South from Jubail at 480 kts.

That and medals for 'shopping in combat' don't make for great stories ;););)

Heathrow Harry wrote

Why does this myth still persist? It wasn't just the RAF operating at low level and bombing airfields. Some of the USAF were down in the weeds for the first three days phase and that included B-52s attacking airfields.

The BUFF at War

See other links at following post.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7625348

The question from that is.....did the JP233 attacks actually work? Did they acheive the purpose? (Irrespective of losses)
If you hadn't carried out those low level attacks, what other area denial weapons were there available in theatre that could have been delivered more safely?

Didn't I read on a thread recently that the options were Durandel and JP233. For some reason I can not recall Durandel was not preferred (maybe the delivery aircraft F111's were needed elsewhere). I've read nothing that says JP233 didn't work at denying the Iraqi's the use of the runways targeted.

I heard at the time that the Iraqis were just pressure washing the area denial bomblets away then patching up any holes?


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There were i belive extremely well equipped bdr teams at these airfields which were to put it mildly vast. Whatever the reason they didn't come out to play in any great numbers so we reached a point where there was no reason to go back. But right or wrong tactics there still must be a story even at a collective level. Anything to counter the 4000 SAS we seemed to have deployed. ;-)

GW1 and Strike Eagles
 

Agree about the lack of articles/books about GW1 UK Air activity, at least in public domain.

I did read a good book about Strike Eagles during the conflict and one chapter had a memorable line from one pilot:

"King Kong hanging off my nuts by steel wire would not drag me down to Low Level again"

I seem to recall there was a decent study of the RAF tactics and losses somewhere out there but I lost it in the mists of time. I'll go hunt.

Quite Interesting
 

Found this. Page 94 onwards is interesting. Actually it looks like most of it could be worth a lunchtime read.

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/document...UK-seminar.pdf

Only a single aircraft was shot down on a JP233 attack, and that several minutes after release.

That Tornado was being flown by a good friend of mine.

Are you sure it was shot down?

Maybe I should have said 'lost', possibly shot down by triple A.

I knew the Nav.

If memory serves, it wasn't minutes after weapon release - more like seconds.

Was it a suspected AP dropout post cannister release? That would have been seconds.

IIRC Tallil was the home base for a Fire Fighting school hence they tried to clear the JP233 submunitions using their vehicles but I don't believe that occurred elsewhere.

And apart from the A-A kill whilst dispensing a pair of JP233, the airfields concerned virtually ceased flying after they were targetted. Now whether that was because they decided they couldn't take off or land or because they simply refused to as they were more than likely to be shot down I suspect we will never know.

There are some forum members on here who flew in those attacks and whilst the JP233 was not designed to go against the specific design of the Iraqi runways, from the reports I have read and photos I have seen, they provided a lot of disruption but the weapon failed to crater sufficiently well as one might have expected elsewhere.

Some of the bones on the whole subject are in those RAF Museum doc articles, but not all of it and, not the meat, IMO.
A sad time for many.

OAP

lets be generous and say the low level attacks were suspended due to the fact they became pointless as the IAF refused to fight.............

tho at the time I remember a lot of people thinking "Fairey Battle - again"

Why risk assets with LL attacks with JP233 once the suprise was gone, when ML LGB ops were just as effective once a designator was in thearte.

Iraq BDR teams? Don't make me laugh.. I was out at Dharhan on the GR BDR teams, largest BDR job we did was due to a ML own goal. I remember talking with one of my snec's when repairing Delta Hotel, when this Saudi airman pitiches up to Bernie and says " You Sh*t metalworker? I sh*t metalworker", Bernies reply? " You propably are...":E

Those would be the folk didn't know their arse from their elbow then. ;)

@AR - I don't think it was the loss of the 'element of surprise' as much as 'air supremacy' that moved things higher for the GR1, or at best a combination of them both. Low level was there because it was the best defence against a layered air defence system. Once that was pretty much dismantled, the ML option became available, although it still took a little time to get the LGB option into theatre

Just Another Jockey.. You are totally correct,

The IAF didn't fight because when they tried to, they were hacked out of the sky long before they even had a chance to engage any collilation aircraft.:ok:

Yes.....by 2 cannisters of JP233! :}

AR 1, if you're looking for something to read, try this...

Well it certainly wasn't by "The Desert Eagles" Sky Flashes or AIM-9Ls was it!!:E

Whatever - the guys put themslves in harm's way

A little ditty floating around in early '91:

I don't want to fly in combat
I don't want to go to war
I'd rather hang around
Riyadh and Dhahran
Filling in my logbook with a sharp green pencil
I don't want a Sam 3 up my ar@ehole
I don't want a Roland in my face......in my faaaaace
I'd rather be in Riyadh, sunny sunny Riyadh
And call myself a punchy F3 ace, cor blimey......on Monday I shoved the f :E

The Royal Air Force Historical Society is holding a seminar at the RAF Museum on 13 March entitled "Operation Granby - The RAF in Gulf War 1 - 1990-91".

Speakers will include Marshals' Hine, Johns, Alcock, Macfadyen and Wratten.

We all were in harms way, ask the 28 yanks who died on the ground a couple of miles down the road, could have been anybody... A bit of banter, that all.:)

Not much mileage in a book about interminable volleyball, and wandering WTF was going on.............rather dull for the slow movers.........except for scoring the occasional porcelain gronker! Not even the endless, endless poetry of WW1

AR

Fine --

FACTS
 

It amazes me some of the utter rubbish that is written on PPRUNE
First point the F3 had the Aim 9M not the Aim 9L
The GR1 Force did EXACTLY what they were supposed to do that is stop the Iraqi Air Force getting airborne and therefore gaining domination of the Air - FACT after day three or so there was no need to carry on with JP233 missions they had achieved what they needed to do. No GR1s were lost due to JP233 missions FACT - one aircraft crashed post target for reasons never proved. The biggest problem the RAF had was once Medium level tactics were adopted they lacked any form of self designating pod - hence the Buccaneers being sent out and later TIALD being used (2) pods at TABUK . The RAF lacked a Precision Guided Weapon as an example pilot X dropped 58,000lbs of weapons in Gulf War one but then dropped 6,000 lbs of PGWs in Operation Telic GW2
If people actually knew what the facts were perhaps they might stop writing such UTTER RUBBISH !!!

Try "Warthog - Flying the A10 in the Gulf War"

Warthog: Flying The A-10 In The Gulf War - William L. Smallwood - Google Books

At the risk of fanning the flames, which wasn't my intention.. the GR1's deployed the only system we (the west) had that could deny large areas. Durandel didnt even come close. They did it in the manner with which they were trained and delivered the ordnance successfully. And at a cost, even if that cost generally came in the delivery of dumb bombs used (as I understand it) defence suppression. When we didn't need to - we didn't. The timing of that particular decision is the the current bone of contention.
we did what we were supposed to do, and that's what I want to hear about.

The story I read, written, I think, by one of the crew involved,, said the bomb did not drop, hung up in other words, and the aircraft became unflyable, with a fire, for reasons that were not fully understood but the crew bailed out and were captured.

Was that the Peters/Nicholl downing? If it was, then I believe the main computer did not generate a release cue for the bombs in the loft attack and unfortunately they recovered quite high and into a Roland MEZ which took the fleeting opportunity and claimed them. It's all in their book (well, nearly all ;)).

As an aside; I spoke with a F-111 driver many years who said the Turkey-based F-111s were flying low-level missions for nearly 2 weeks.

And I agree. We lost a lot of good friends, saw others captured and tortured and yet still the myths regarding the viability of low level attacks and the general poo-pooing of the GR1 (and subsequently GR4) and its capabilities and achievements does gripe me. It is one of the best and most successful attack aircraft we have ever had. It may not be as sexy as, say, the Bucc, or as superficially impressive as the Harrier, but when you examine what the crews, engineers and geeks have done with the aircraft, on operations near-continuously for nearly 23 years, I think my statement there stands the test.

Whilst my part in GW1 was relatively small, I do believe there are stories to be told and we all have them.....8kft and tapped by a AAA site being one of mine! :uhoh:

Here's a book which was officially sanctioned just after GW1...

Thunder and Lightning: R.A.F. in the Gulf - Personal Experiences of War. (Charles Allen)
ISBN-10: 011701625X
ISBN-13: 978-0117016255

It must be significant that, of all the Types involved, the GR1s had a Loss Ratio almost an order of magnitude higher than the next worst!
KB

KiloB, no one ever thought that a JP233 delivery would be easy. In some respects the GR1s were in the teeth of the battle which, I believe, was at least as fierce as the CR would have been.