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Originally Posted by Wensleydale
(Post 7307215)
The Fighter Control and Airborne Technicians wing are no longer "brevets" - they are termed as "flying badges".
Possibly in a recent RAF Historical Society Journal, which I can't access at the moment. |
We wouldn't have let fighter controllers and airborne technicians into the Brevet Club in Mayfair.
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Brevet (Fr) = diploma,certificate.
Badge (Fr) = Badge |
One was slaving away on the 4th Floor of MoD Main Building when the WSO/Op "RAF" brevet was being staffed. Originally and (IMHO) incredibly, the original draft had the Crown only on WSO (ie commssioned) brevets!
Until we pointed out that whern we had non-commissioned pilots, their wings also had crowns .. And of course I write as a fully paid up, commissioned member of the TWMR! :ok: And I'm sure I saw Simon Bryant with a WSO brevet? |
Interestingly MOD call the Pilots wings a 'badge' and the rear crew wing a 'brevet' :)
Qualification Badges 0712. Flying & Parachute Badges. This section deals with those flying badges (QR J727 & 728) and Parachute badges (QR 434 436) currently in issue BADGE DESCRIPTION Pilot. Wings of drab silk embroidery with monogram 'RAF' in centre, surrounded by laurel leaf of brown silk and surmounted by a crown on dark blue melton cloth. Navigator. The letter 'N' of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long on dark blue melton cloth. Air Electronics Officer ] or Operator (AE) ] As for Navigator, but with alternative letters, in brackets. (See Note) Air Engineer (E) ] Air Loadmaster (LM) ] Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below). Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will be no further provisioning of the current brevet. Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram RAF in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above). Fighter Controller (FC). The letters FC of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long on dark blue melton cloth. Airborne Technician (AT). The letters AT of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long on dark blue melton cloth. |
Length of Course
Was any course in the RAF, aircrew or ground crew, longer than the Aircraft Apprentice's 3 years?
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http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/im...21/2942687.png
No WSO brevet for Sir Simon Bryant - thank goodness! Furthermore, in answer to the Apprenticeship 3 years question. A. It's impossible to compare as Flying Trg for commissioned aircrew has many stages and is not a straight through course - in my time 5 months Initial Officer Trg, 19 months Basic Nav Trg, 6 months TWU and 6 months FJ OCU = roughly 3 years with the odd 1-2 week "hold" on top. |
"No WSO brevet for Sir Simon Bryant - thank goodness!"
Although he did one wear one on his woolly pully iirc. Probably couldn't get a new 'N' brevet from stores following one of the many changes of jumper design.... |
Originally Posted by Rossian
(Post 7307663)
...as a very old former AEO may I add that the most senior were Alan Hicks and Mike Butler both whom were Air Commodores. Both were squadron commanders in the maritime force, (42 and 120 respectively).
Then Brian MacLaren went from Sgt AEOp to Air Cdre. |
Originally Posted by Ron Cake
(Post 7307998)
On another current thread (58 Nav course), ICM posted that the Nav course 'was all done inside 12 months'. He gave as an example No 72 course at Hullavington which ran from Jan to Dec 1965.
I have just called a nav chum from those days who dug out his records. They showed that his nav course ran from 1 Sep 59 to 30 Aug 60. I make that 12 months. So if these two navs are right, the nav course was one month shorter than the AEO course. I'm checking the pilots course duration in the early 60's. |
As PN said, the early Nav Rad courses at BCBC Lindholme ran for a full year. I believe students had to do much of the NBS/H2S syllabus right down to circuit level. It must have needed good maths and physics and a real dedication to hard work.
So how did the P staff persuade newly qualified Navs to opt for the Nav Rad training when it meant a further year of hard graft. And it had the prospect of life in the V force at the end of it. It must have been a hard sell. |
Ron, persuade? You must be joking. If you were an abo it was your course commander, CNI and poster that determined your posting.
If you were a retread there was indeed some persuasion or more like mis-selling. We had an ex-Canberra nav and an ex-JARIC nav and both had been given the fast ball albeit for the 4 month course. Another retread decided he didn't want to pass and did little work in ground school. At the culmination we underwent a Viva with all the kit set out but power off. His Viva lasted 7 1/2 hours. Needless to say, they wouldn't let him fail. |
the observer assisting the pilot with his navigation (pointing out landmarks etc). |
Pontius,
Ref your #49 - you are hereby fined a slab for mentioning him that shall not be named. |
Daf H, the latter not the former I presume, although not too much difference?
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I believe in the German Air Force (WWI) the observer was always an officer and a/c captain. The pilot was a Sgt and looked on as some kind of chauffeur in their recce 'planes.
I have no vested interest in the pilot v others by the way....:) The Dennett EngO referred to in an above post was John Dennett, he was Sengo on 3 at Gut in the late 70's. There was also a WgCdr Cheeseman at Sealand in the early 80's, an eng with pilot's wings and the CO was a Group Captain eng who's name escapes me now but he wore an AEO badge. |
84 Nav course lasted from mid-Jan to mid-Dec 66 - 11 months tops.
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Originally Posted by thing
(Post 7582156)
The Dennett EngO referred to in an above post was John Dennett, he was Sengo on 3 at Gut in the late 70's. There was also a WgCdr Cheeseman at Sealand in the early 80's, an eng with pilot's wings and the CO was a Group Captain eng who's name escapes me now but he wore an AEO badge.
I don't know how much benefit the Eng branch got from a relatively small number of aircrew trained officers. |
thing,
I believe in the German Air Force (WWI) the observer was always an officer and a/c captain. The pilot was a Sgt and looked on as some kind of chauffeur in their recce 'planes. |
PN - a few points about your recent posts
Thank for putting me right on how Nav Rad's were selected. I should have realised that a certain amount of 'leaning' would have been needed. I bet it caused a lot of resentment. I remember on long overseas sectors our Nav's would sometimes change seats. ....how the Nav Rad loved to get his paws on the INS and Green Satin for an afternoon. In the banter about AEO's who reached high rank you introduced the name of a two star who, in the mid 70's, was done for 'cottageing'. He was, in fact, a pilot and not an AEO. ...thought I'd mention it. I too remember the scheme whereby Eng Officers graduating from the RAF Tech College at Henlow could apply to do an aircrew tour as either a pilot or AEO. But I don't think they had the option to remain in the GD branch after one tour. Career Eng Officers from Henlow were far too valuable to sit around in Squadron crew rooms playing cards/ uckers |
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